B52CRSH2

B52CRSH2

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  • Anonymous coward on 2004-May-25 18:55:22 Anonymous coward said

    Aaron
    Is that an ejetction seat in front of the horizontal stab?
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Jun-13 07:06:54 Anonymous coward said

    beaver
    they call that losing altitude???
    I call that falling...
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Jun-30 17:37:34 Anonymous coward said

    John
    I call it a dumb ass pilot.
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Jul-01 02:08:13 Anonymous coward said

    Intrepid
    I saw the video of this. The pilot had just got done flying at 30 ft barely clearing a hill top. After that he tried an F16 type hard left bank but didn't have the speed or the altitude.
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Jul-26 19:03:44 Anonymous coward said

    Catman
    Slow speed+extreme bank angle=unrecoverable stall. Sadly, they were practicing for an airshow that was designed to lift the spirits of the people at the base after an airman went on a shooting spree. This happened 2 days later. Ironicly, a few men refused to fly with this pilot because of his hotdoging.
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Sep-16 00:36:25 Anonymous coward said

    ekstasis
    The Co Pilot was the father of one of my classmates here at the AF Academy... apparently he ordered two of the junior officers off the plane and in doing so saved their lives. According to the after accident report the co-pilot was the only one to attempt to eject but was killed on impact.
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Sep-16 18:59:01 Anonymous coward said

    Former AF enlisted aircrew member
    I attended USAF survival school at Fairchild AFB...creepy.
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Sep-21 13:09:13 Anonymous coward said

    Mike G
    I think I remember this in the news...the pilot was retiring and this was to be his last flight...he was a real show off, and no one wanted to fly with him..unfortunately it wasnt just HIS last flight.
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Oct-17 14:40:17 Anonymous coward said

    Robert McGee
    My dad knew the co- piolt. The piolt was showing off when this happend. The piolt was a stupid person
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Oct-17 14:42:27 Anonymous coward said

    Robert McGee
    mike is right too.
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Oct-21 17:02:06 Anonymous coward said

    Bulldog
    Fairchild was my home base during Viet Nam...we spent most of our time flying out of Guam. We used 60 deg of bank dodging SAMs over Hanoi...not at 30 ft. This guy was a jeep.
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Nov-08 13:50:33 Anonymous coward said

    'Ol Pilot
    Used to refuel these from my KC-135. For the full story, go:

    http://s92270093.onlinehome.us/crmdevel/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm
  • Anonymous coward on 2004-Nov-17 12:42:12 Anonymous coward said

    Marsh
    The item in the air in front of the tail is the hatch cover above the copilot's seat. He initiated ejection, but there wasn't enough time...
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jan-04 02:51:03 Anonymous coward said

    Red aRRow
    I didn't know B-52s had ejection seats.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jan-19 17:57:43 Anonymous coward said

    terd
    you have to stop and think before you try to show off
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jan-19 18:01:55 Anonymous coward said

    terd
    "Well I don't have to do the paper work"
    That is the only happy thought the pilot and the crew was thinking that split second.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jan-28 11:18:51 Anonymous coward said

    retired MSgt
    The last words heard by the tower from the pilot to the crew were, "Sorry guys...."
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Feb-13 10:19:19 Anonymous coward said

    claudio
    una foto incredibile
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Feb-18 19:35:03 Anonymous coward said

    MaTibirica
    The other 3 with the pilot knew he was going to try something more than he had already done (60 degrees turns close to the AFB). Many crew members had refused to fly with that pilot. Why those 3 got on that flight ?
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Feb-18 19:35:12 Anonymous coward said

    formattc
    Yes, all stations on the B52 have ejection seats. The roof hatch blows away and the seat rocket blows the crew member clear of the vertical stab.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Feb-21 14:13:27 Anonymous coward said

    Muller
    As far as I can see, the Czar 52 was already nose down before touching the power lines.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Mar-22 23:53:50 Anonymous coward said

    Wyn
    I went through Navigator School with LtCol Ken Huston.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Mar-27 18:27:18 Anonymous coward said

    Jeff
    Wyn (n all): None of them (except Bud) deserved the final fate of that flight, especially LtCol Huston.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Apr-16 20:51:51 Anonymous coward said

    Maddog
    I had flown with this pilot many times. He was very skilled, but had pushed the BUFF to the limits more than a few times. Every one on this bird had eagles on there uniforms. it was a great lost for the base that day.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-May-02 23:52:31 Anonymous coward said

    darksanly
    Who has this vedio footage?
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-May-03 18:58:24 Anonymous coward said

    Stu
    Look for at Amazing Videos.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-May-09 15:55:41 Anonymous coward said

    jack
    the object seen is the co-pilot hatch being jettisoned. I have just retired from Tinker A.F.B. where I worked on the ejection systems for the B-52H's.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-May-12 15:42:41 Anonymous coward said

    Ric
    Not all seats go up, some eject down and not all stations eject.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jun-15 17:41:09 Anonymous coward said

    Ms Kathy
    I am happy that all is well, so lets just thank God that he is safe and look at this as a miracle and something to learn from....
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jun-23 16:48:28 Anonymous coward said

    Rob James Townsend
    B-52s Dont have ejection seats its something else. seen the footage of this and the pilote was insane... should have been gounded years ago.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jun-23 23:15:41 Anonymous coward said

    Old Buff Guy
    Buff's very much have ejection seats, I have +2000 hours flying in one... and I am pretty sure of what i was sitting in. Also, there were two B-52s in the pattern that day. I was in the other.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jul-04 14:55:15 Anonymous coward said

    NikkiHuston
    My dad was the navigator that was on this flight. Lt. Col. Kenneth Huston. It was actually his day off the day he flew with Bud. The navigator that was origonally supposed to fly with him refused to do so. My dad then stepped in... on his day off...
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jul-04 14:58:21 Anonymous coward said

    Nikki Huston
    This image haunts me daily. No one deserved to die on this flight, even Bud. My dad left behind his wife and four kids.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jul-14 21:05:29 Anonymous coward said

    diver6
    Nikki,
    May you and your family find the peace someday that you so greatly deserve. Your father was a man of great courage to get aboard that plane that day. Very sorry for your loss.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jul-18 15:44:03 Anonymous coward said

    joe707
    The pilot's superiors knew this guy was a loser but were afraid to stop him; they are responsible as well.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Jul-31 07:03:38 Anonymous coward said

    Rick Beebout
    Nikki,
    I hope all is going well with your family. I knew your family from FBC at the time. I also was the photographer that came and took the Photos at your fathers funeral.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-04 01:28:19 Anonymous coward said

    I remember..
    I remember my father telling me that he believed a high ranking individual was on board whom the pilot hated with a bitter passion. That this was no "accident", but rather, intentional
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-19 00:24:07 Anonymous coward said

    Meg Holland, Pilot's daughter
    There is always two sides to every story. Sadly, the country has heard only one and because of that my father, the pilot, has been given a bad rep. He had a passion for life and was looking forward to retiring and spending it with my mother, sister, and myself.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-19 00:27:08 Anonymous coward said

    Meg Holland, Pilot's daughter
    He knew the limits of what a B-52 could do and would NEVER endanger the lives of others. To all of you who call him an idiot and that he deserved to die, I feel sorry for you-for you obviously don't know the whole story here and are very opinionated
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-19 18:46:01 Anonymous coward said

    Sherlock Holmes
    It´s been said Bud was on the controls and so, knowing the limits, why did he get in that maneuver ?
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-21 03:36:17 Anonymous coward said

    Meg Holland
    There is no proof that my father was at the controls when the plane turned, my father, however tried to correct it. That is the co-pilot who ejected. My father would have never left a crew.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-21 19:59:42 Anonymous coward said

    amjg
    Dear Meg: I´m the one who said your father deserved to die and also signed as Sherlock. I´m 47 and a pilot. What I said was without thinking cause I hate see other aviators die. Sorry !
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-22 14:14:07 Anonymous coward said

    Contraildash
    I just read the case study on this accident. Lots of failures of leadership on many levels led to this accident. Tragic.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-22 14:17:46 Anonymous coward said

    contraildash
    here's one case study:

    http://s92270093.onlinehome.us/CRM-Devel/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-23 20:08:07 Anonymous coward said

    Maddog
    Meg sorry for the lost of your father, and the rest of the crew that day. I knew everone on board taht day. as a crew chief at FAFB I flew with BUD many times. The Copilot was my Commanding Officer of the 325th BS. The Nav was a STAN-EVAL expert, and the Vice Wing Commander.

  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-24 02:05:37 Anonymous coward said

    Meg Holland
    Sherlock Holmes and Maddog, thank you for your comments. I know that when there's an accident and nothing is found, it becomes Pilot Error. Well, the sad thing is that there is so much more to this story than the public will never know.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-24 03:04:03 Anonymous coward said

    contraildash
    While nothing diminishes the loss of all involved, it is indeed a clear cut case of pilot error, and could have been prevented had the Wing leadership actually acted. Maj Kerns case study sheds some light on it. Good read.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-25 18:42:49 Anonymous coward said

    Jim135
    I knew Bud Holland having worked in Tanker Stan/Eval just down the hall from him for over a year. Impressions of events are always different depending on if you know the person or not. He was one of the nicest people I knew.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-25 18:43:23 Anonymous coward said

    Jim135
    Was he arrogant? Sure a bit but what flyer isnt (cmon flyers be honest with yourselves). Was he skilled? Without a doubt. Did he make a mistake? Yes and he happened to do it right at the edge where it couldnt be afforded.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-25 18:43:58 Anonymous coward said

    Jim135
    The best usually push the limits and perform right up to the edge. Just look at the plethora of aircraft accidents filmed at airshows and youll see that some were luckier than others in their outcomes. To suggest this accident was intentional is ludicrous.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-25 18:44:36 Anonymous coward said

    Jim135
    For those that havent read Darker Shades of Blue that was referenced earlier I recommend it before making snap judgments. It presents an analytical view of the events leading up to the accident. Its too easy to second guess events that occur in seconds after having years to study them.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Aug-26 15:16:27 Anonymous coward said

    Sherlock Holmes
    Jim135´s statements totally true in my opinion. Not because you´re arrogant, you´re nuts. All rich and important guys are arrogant,aviators ´re not out !
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Sep-03 02:41:14 Anonymous coward said

    observer
    I think the case study by Major Kerns makes it all very clear. Bud Holland was an arrogant "rogue pilot". He may have been a nice guy, but his history speaks for itself. Those, unfortunately, are the cold hard facts.



  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Sep-11 19:30:18 Anonymous coward said

    Alberto
    First time here, not a pilot or crew member but an aeromodeler R/C flyer-many years. I´d like to say that Meg´s statement that we know little and that we´ll never know all, is the final word to me.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Sep-13 13:34:50 Anonymous coward said

    paul
    I was just telling a co-worker about this incident and found your site from google. I stationed at FAFB when this happened - worked at base comms - very sad day and week - the hospital shooting happened that week as well.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-06 15:08:58 Anonymous coward said

    Grant Stewart
    Hi there everybody- what a tragedy- I am a bush pilot in the deep south of New Zealand and woulf very much like to get into contact with Meg Holland- daughter of the great Bud...my email is c130herctruck@hotmail.com---many thanks
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-10 23:41:32 Anonymous coward said

    Rugburn
    My sis and nephew were at Fairchild AFB then; They skipped the doc appt. on the shooting day and then were home near the airport when the plane crashed. Too damn close if you ask me.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-10 23:44:15 Anonymous coward said

    Rugburn
    The bald truth is that 'Bud' Holland, as PIC (Pilot In Command) bears ultimate responsibility for this, regardless of who performed the maneuver. It's sad, but that's how the military does things.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-11 15:46:50 Anonymous coward said

    Czar53
    How much lift is there produced at 90 degrees angle of bank?
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-14 10:01:09 Anonymous coward said

    Henrik the Dane
    Same as in straight and level flight, minus the loss of lift caused by the possibly too tight turn rate.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-14 10:04:06 Anonymous coward said

    Henrik the Dane
    If turn is too tight, a/c will enter an "accelerated stall".
    I have tried up 87° bank angles in turns at higher altitude in a CRJ 200 Regional Jet.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-14 17:17:52 Anonymous coward said

    grant stewart
    Still trying to get hold of Meg...if you are out there Meg please email me----yeah we used to rip around all the time at 90 degrees in the A4s- there really is n lift at this aob
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-19 14:32:18 Anonymous coward said

    czar53
    Just another example of an irresponsible ass- doing a classic "watch this" on his last flight...how many Muppetts have been killed this way?
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-21 14:58:47 Anonymous coward said

    Magoo
    I´m a kind of planes crash researcher. I´d guess this one is unique in our planet. All "watch this" I´d seen b4 this, took precautions (margin error) not to die, kill, cause losses... But in this case... (look the above picture we´ll never forget !"
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-21 22:09:28 Anonymous coward said

    Gord Beaman
    Concur with comment re Tony Kerns 'Darker Shades of Blue', should be required reading for all flight crew, To Meg, my heart goes out to you dear...try to forgive him, his priorities were misaligned, try to remember that there's very few perfect humans.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Oct-30 15:26:11 Anonymous coward said

    raaf pig wrangler
    90" 200-300ft agl, wing over horizon turn in a buff. stupid and reckless and cost the lives of fellow airmen. tragic
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Nov-08 22:42:44 Anonymous coward said

    Huskerpilot
    I flew and worked with Bud at K.I. Sawyer AFB. He was a super person and great pilot. Unfortunately, he got into a position, even with his great skill, he couldn't get out of. He is saving lives today. This accident is a case study in major airline human factors training.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Dec-10 02:20:03 Anonymous coward said

    Meg Holland
    I enjoy reading all of your comments. And Gord, forgive him? Why, he didn't cause that crash, but takes the blame because he was the pilot.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Dec-10 02:21:47 Anonymous coward said

    Meg Holland
    He was planning on retiring the following month, he had nothing to prove so why would he go and "show off"? He knew how to push the limits but would never endanger his crew.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Dec-10 02:24:29 Anonymous coward said

    Meg Holland
    In fact, if you don't push the limits sometimes, how would you know what to do if you faced a similar situation in real combat? You can't read about experience.
  • Anonymous coward on 2005-Dec-27 20:31:05 Anonymous coward said

    top hat
    thats some hard core butt slaming.
    I saw this on cops. nothing but action
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Jan-18 09:04:21 Anonymous coward said

    Misawa Enlisted guy
    Read the report!!! F$#@$* idiots all of them, to include the officers who got on the bird with that ass!!
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Jan-30 14:03:11 Anonymous coward said

    xusafflyer
    Unknown to many people, there were a lot of people near the impact zone. I was just outside the survival school building with 20 or so other AF enlisted and officers watching the practice. The crash was ~250ft from our group, to the left in the camera shot.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Feb-06 11:14:07 Anonymous coward said

    BUFFJohn
    There's nothing more wasteful than dying in a training accident. This didn't need to happen.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Feb-09 09:15:17 Anonymous coward said

    observer
    I have read with interest all postings relating to this tragic event. My question would be; did the AC request and the military ATC give permission for such an unusual go-around/departure? If no permission was requested/granted then definitely the AC should and deserves all responibility.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Feb-14 10:42:34 Anonymous coward said

    Ex KI
    My sympathies to all, touched by this crash. My tour at KI (75-78) involved a B52, nuclear payload, & 8 dead men, but I can't find anything on the net. My part has been kept secret for 28 years, but now, I need verification, and there is none.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Feb-17 09:42:01 Anonymous coward said

    checksixx
    Megg, please tell us what we have not heard! I'm Air Force SP and can tell everyone here that the report, statements etc...are NOT classified.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Feb-24 00:02:50 Anonymous coward said

    Impaler
    The co-pilot was his squadron commander, also killed in the crash. The right seater shoud've grounded him years before this happened. Wing/CC ignored his violations of pitch/bank angles.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Feb-28 13:02:42 Anonymous coward said

    BUFFJohn
    Ex KI, please elaborate. I flew BUFFs out of Fairchild and Castle and never heard anything about what you refer to. Were you a crewmember?
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Mar-01 13:37:17 Anonymous coward said

    WCS Tech
    Never thought about whether we liked or disliked a crew member when they went down. Shock, stumble around numb, impound records, suppress the tears.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Mar-06 09:55:43 Anonymous coward said

    crew chief gone preacher
    I was in the Command Post that day When the crash hotline rang from the control tower. A sad day filled with much anxiety. I'll never forget it. Meg, may God bless you and you family. I'm sorry for your loss, and I'm sorry that so many are still talking about it in such a horrific way.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Mar-21 10:53:55 Anonymous coward said

    Low Flyby @ Buckley ANG
    In about 1990 I saw a B52 perform a high speed flyby, pulling into a 70 degree climb, followed by a wingover at top. Fuel spilled from wing tanks, announcer went nuts. I believe it was Bud Holland driving. Anybody remember for sure?
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Jun-08 06:50:24 Anonymous coward said

    Hondo
    Yes it was Bud Holland- Holland did this sort of thing all the time. The AF accident investigation uncovered numerous well-documented incidents in which Bud Holland was at the controls. The senior leadership was seriously reprimanded for not reigning him in before he killed people.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Jun-29 16:55:52 Anonymous coward said

    Mil Brat/USAF Retired 79-99
    Ex Ki, I remember, believe it happened winter 77-78. Being 16-17 y/o Brat, I dismissed the nuclear arms rumors. I'll ask Dad what he remembers
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Jul-02 23:04:53 Anonymous coward said

    Mil PA-C
    I was commissioned on the day of the crash at ACC HQ. Remember it well. see this paper....sheds lots of light.
    www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Jul-28 01:02:16 Anonymous coward said

    Colt AN2
    Obviously an arrogant, selfish man who lost a battle with his ego. Unfortunately his battle losses robbed others of a father, husband, brother, son. There are no proud props for this flathatter.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-01 22:23:09 Anonymous coward said

    John
    I was at Sawyer when a B-52 went down about 5 miles from Sawyer. I was there from 1973 to 1977. I have pictures of the crash site. After I left in 1977 SAC lost another B-52. As far as the nuclear rumor,which crash are you talking about?
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-04 18:06:33 Anonymous coward said

    Mil Brat/USAF Retired 79-99
    John, 77-78?? crash I thought about 2-3 miles north of the base I heard a rumor nuclear arms were on-board. Dad did confirm the crash, he said pilot error, not watching the altitude and hit tree-tops??
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-05 12:57:34 Anonymous coward said

    John
    ????
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-05 13:01:03 Anonymous coward said

    John
    It crashed a few miles north of the Sawyer runway. How far i'm not sure. My pictures show he hit the tree-tops just like you say. Never heard the nuclear weapons story.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-05 13:03:53 Anonymous coward said

    John
    I thought the crash happened in 1974. I've seen info on the internet about this crash. When I left in 1977 there was another B-52 crash. I loaded weapons on the F-106 from the 87th FIS.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-05 13:26:08 Anonymous coward said

    John
    Just found the following info- It crashed on April 1,1977. It was on a landing approach during a heavy spring snow. I do remember now coming out of the bowling alley and it was snowing when I heard that SAC lost a B-52.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-21 16:15:53 Anonymous coward said

    B-52 H Crash April 1, 1977
    Any info on the 1977 crash , did they all get out? Etc. I was the crew chief on this aircraft 0039, 1972-74 when it was at Grand Forks. Thanks, Joel Van Engen
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-22 17:32:16 Anonymous coward said

    KI KID
    I was at KI for that 77-78 crash. More like 78-79 in my mind. It was the standboard #1 crew on a checkflight by the standboard #2 crew. The pilot followed the clouds into the ground. 2 crews, no survivors, no nukes.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-22 17:35:35 Anonymous coward said

    KI KID
    I was doing EWO, Fire Control, and Bomb-Nav simulators for the buffs, working with the aircrews directly at the time. Contributing was a radar altimeter alert switch was left in wrong position, but pilot err was primary.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-23 23:27:22 Anonymous coward said

    KI Kid
    Buffs have 6 crew, 6 ejection seats. 4 up, pilot, co-pilot, fire control, ewo. 2 down, navigator, bomb-navigator. Older models the fire control officer bails out of the tail.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Aug-27 00:21:16 Anonymous coward said

    Mike
    I was a survival school student when that Buff(Czar 52) went down. We had just finished taking an exam and went outside to watch the B-52 fly. I remember thinking to myself, "Wow, I didn't know those planes could fly like that" just prior to the crash. It's a day I'll never forget.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Sep-02 04:06:02 Anonymous coward said

    optV
    Here is footage of the accident and more of "bud"s antics: http://thatvideosite.com/view/978.html I highly recommend reading the darkblue article as it describes in detail the multiple violations and stupidity of the ill-dated pilot
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Sep-08 17:22:24 Anonymous coward said

    Tom M
    My brother was on the april 1st flight (Lt Christopher M.).I was 14 at the time.Every now and then do a search to see if there is any info..found this site..can anyone give me more details or point me in the direction to find them
    I saw some people who were there
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Sep-25 20:24:40 Anonymous coward said

    33746
    The crew and aircraft are gone. They paid the ultimate price for flight of a heavy aircraft of this type beyond its operational limits. Fortunately no one on the ground was killed. Let this be a lesson to any pilot.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-08 23:44:37 Anonymous coward said

    ghostdog
    Meg i knew your dad ,he was a good pilot and don't you forget that, he could make a B-52 do things that nobody else could.a minor mistake was made that day and it cost them.BUD was not the ranking man on board that plane.it was a sad week for FAFB that week.I'm very sorry for all those who died.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-08 23:46:08 Anonymous coward said

    ghostdog
    Meg i knew your dad ,he was a good pilot and don't you forget that, he could make a B-52 do things that nobody else could.a minor mistake was made that day and it cost them.BUD was not the ranking man on board that plane.it was a sad week for FAFB that week.I'm very sorry for all those who died.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-11 13:26:20 Anonymous coward said

    ssffsd
    sfsfd
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-24 08:34:18 Anonymous coward said

    kat
    http://thatvideosite.com/video/978

    the footage is now there, contains footage of the accident and also the video footage of the Global Power Mission in '93. Well worth watching if you are studying the case.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-25 02:36:58 Anonymous coward said

    kat
    hmm looks like its actually the Yakima Bombing Range in '94 where they just make it over the ridge instead of the GPM
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-27 19:18:15 Anonymous coward said

    Da S02 Co
    The crash in 74 was a B58
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-27 19:20:40 Anonymous coward said

    Da S02 Co
    I was there from Dec 74 to Mar 79, only one B-52 crash during that time. I was the Co on S02 and I was on alert, S02 was not giving a check ride at the time. No nukes on board. If you want details I'll be happy to give them.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-27 19:26:14 Anonymous coward said

    Da S02 Co
    you can reach me at jmcwil at earthlink dot net
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-27 19:30:07 Anonymous coward said

    Da S02 Co
    To crew chief on 0039, there were some real issues with that plane on the previous flight. Total electrical failure at low level at night. damn scarry situation. I know I was there.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-27 19:45:35 Anonymous coward said

    Da S02 Co
    To crew chief on 0039, there were some real issues with that plane on the previous flight. Total electrical failure at low level at night. damn scarry situation. I know I was there.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Oct-31 01:31:59 Anonymous coward said

    eddiek
    A buddy of mine died 05 Nov 1977 and I was told he died in the crash of a B52. Can anyone verify a crash on or about this date?
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Nov-18 10:37:02 Anonymous coward said

    matt
    >>he could make a B-52 do things that nobody else could
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Nov-18 10:38:02 Anonymous coward said

    matt
    "he could make a B-52 do things that nobody 1else could do"

    No, he did things in the B-52 that nobody else was stupid enough to do.

  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Nov-18 10:38:21 Anonymous coward said

    matt
    "a minor mistake was made that day and it cost them"

    You think a completely unnecessary 90+ degree bank 200 feet AGL is a 'minor' mistake? It was deliberate, unforgivable recklessness on the part of Col. Holland.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Nov-18 10:39:03 Anonymous coward said

    matt
    The apologists for Col. Holland, including his daughter, need to lay off the crackpipes. There is ample evidence, including pictures, video and statements by colleagues that Col. Holland, while arguably a good pilot, exhibited an appalling lack of judgment.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Nov-18 10:39:18 Anonymous coward said

    matt
    Col. Holland without a doubt performed reckless maneuvers in every previous airshow. To suggest that he wasn't at the controls here is delusional. The man is essentially a murderer.
  • Anonymous coward on 2006-Nov-19 12:39:43 Anonymous coward said

    dan
    calling Col.Holland a murderer is a big leap too far
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Feb-07 06:32:09 Anonymous coward said

    aPilotToo
    "calling Col.Holland a murderer is a big leap too far".....

    Not really, Matt just had the balls to say what everyone knows. There is no way Holland should have been allowed in any aircraft. Total breakdown of leadership.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Feb-12 17:20:49 Anonymous coward said

    xxx
    Holy crap! Bernoulli principal be damned.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Feb-14 07:39:24 Anonymous coward said

    Dodge10
    Holland was arguably a "great pilot". He made that turn to avoid overflying the base Nuclear weapons storage area. Overflight of that area was grounds for immediate grounding and in his case would have resulted in permanent grounding.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Feb-16 20:18:53 Anonymous coward said

    mach37
    In the previous still photo both spoilers appear to be up/deployed. Wouldn't that have contributed to stalling? Can't tell from THIS photo if the left one is still up, but video from fractions of a second before seem to show only the right spoiler up, i.e., full right aileron cranked in.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Feb-24 11:35:01 Anonymous coward said

    USAFA Grad
    Bud Holland was ill. Mentally ill. He killed that crew--manslaughter by negligence. He forgot how to be a good pilot and he was NEVER a good teammate--including his time at the ZOO. THe people who left him at the controls should have received Article-15s. They share the liability
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Feb-24 18:20:22 Anonymous coward said

    OPs Goup member
    I was a member of the group at the time of the accident, knew the crew memebers. Holland was reckless but(Col Pellerin) continued to let him fly. If he had been grounded - this wouldnt have happened. Col Pellerin failed Col Holland, he should have been grounded. God forgive Pellerin!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Feb-25 01:08:04 Anonymous coward said

    Ibpilot
    Lot of experts posting in here, Everybody has an expert opinion I am With Miss Holland I do not think bud Holland was at the controls of this plane, as a matter of fact I think no one was at the controls. the two pilots were in a heated arguement and forgot to fly the plane.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Feb-25 01:11:28 Anonymous coward said

    Ibpilot
    Id like to hear the voice rcorder
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Mar-03 21:40:44 Anonymous coward said

    rooster1001
    I was stationed at Fairchild. There were mistakes made by command and whomever was flying. It was a terrible tragedy for all of us there. I think many people have learned from this tragedy. My deepest sypathies to the crew and their families. It's been a rough 12 years. Godspeed.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Mar-08 01:30:53 Anonymous coward said

    ibpilot
    he was trying to save the two guys below. and he was waiting to be last to eject. Bud holland is a hero. sacrificed his life to try and save another
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Mar-10 17:47:15 Anonymous coward said

    G Rogers
    My Father F-4 Phantoms, one of the worst things that ever could occur is a plane crash, and when that would inevitably occur, all us "Pilot kids" would wait till we heard the word. The thought of WATCHING your father die, right there... my heart goes out to all.

  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Mar-11 20:07:16 Anonymous coward said

    wow
    He had finished the turn nicely. Did he start to roll it over and others intervened? He might have succeeded if they had let him? Must have been an argument between the pilots - or Bud got carried away grounding them all for good as he was supposed to be grounded (suicidal nd not likely)
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Mar-24 20:37:56 Anonymous coward said

    Rugburn
    After reading all material available on- and offline on Holland's career and reputation, it's safe to say he was negligent. There's no scapegoat; He screwed up. And this wasn't an isolated matter. Meg: Your demand of 'proof' is as cowardly as what happened. If you want to play law, go to Harvard.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Mar-25 13:46:58 Anonymous coward said

    IBPILOT
    My previous 3 comments were innapropriate and i apologize for them. No one will ever know what really happened in that plane. I am done now!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Apr-02 22:53:52 Anonymous coward said

    Lyle Meyer
    I was stationed at FAFB 1969-1970.I hope that other air crews learn something from this tragedy.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Apr-07 01:15:14 Anonymous coward said

    Sean
    Meg,
    Your father was a killer that should have been imprisoned years prior. Any 18 old pilot learns about load factor effect on stall. A plane that will fly at 45 will not necessarily fly at 60 degrees aob. Anything past 50 was not pushing it, it was suicide.Your Dad was a walking time bomb.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Apr-08 02:16:08 Anonymous coward said

    Lori
    Got to know your limitations!!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-May-27 12:04:23 Anonymous coward said

    Old Fairchild B-52 IP
    I also knew Bud. All that was posted is true (the good, bad, & ugly). He was what we called a frustrated heavy pilot (always wishing he flew fighters). When they crash no one really cars. When a crew AC crashes the blame game begins.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-04 14:03:38 Anonymous coward said

    Raven
    The PIC was criminally negligent and criminally irresponsible. End of story.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 00:52:37 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    I just finished reading "Darker Shades of Blue" at www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm. Many people posting here are failing to distinguish between the Lt. Col. Bud Holland, exceptional stick and rudder pilot (perhaps the best ever in a B-52) ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 00:53:57 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    and the airmanship of Lt. Col. Bud Holland (unfortunately, some of the worst ever). Also, many people posting here are posting "from the heart" because Bud Holland was someone they knew and that they feel they must defend him.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 00:55:23 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    Because of that, ludicrous things are being said, such as the idea Col. Holland was rolling the plane on its side so the navigator and bombardier could eject, or that he was a hero because he didn't over fly the weapons storage area ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 00:56:41 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    (the deaths of 4 officers is a better outcome then a safety violation resulting in grounding of a pilot?) or the craziest of all (implied but not overtly stated) that Lt. Col. Mark McGeehan ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 00:57:19 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... intentionally crashed the plane, in front of his own wife and children, because of his feud with Lt. Col. Holland.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 00:58:00 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    Emotions do not make for clear thinking, clear decisions or clearly thought out blog postings. The facts that have been documented in this case (including the video tapes - are those of you defending Col. Holland deigning what is clearly and obviously recorded on video tape?)
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 00:58:36 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    There is no doubt that Lt. Col. Holland often flew the plane outside its performance envelope. Doing so is a willful denial of the laws of physics (especially aerodynamics) and the rules of engineering. Design limits are not arbitrarily set, but are based on engineering rules and physics.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 00:59:15 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    You cannot, by force of will, make the aircraft do that which is impossible for it to do. Attempting to take the B-52H in a low speed, high bank angle, 360-degree turn around the tower was asking the plane to violate the laws of physics as well as the engineering limits.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 01:00:15 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    Lt. Col. Bud Holland knew those engineering limits as well as if not better than most, yet he chose to ignore them. All that is beyond any type of reasoned dispute, although I am sure an emotional argument will be made against this post.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 01:00:52 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    The only unsettled question about Lt. Col. Holland is, "Why did he do it, and why did he do it not once but repeatedly?" Once could be an accident or oversight. But repeatedly violating design specifications, operational regulations and safety standards is not an accident.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 01:02:48 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    It can only be incompetence (obviously not the case) or willful violation of the standards and rules. Those of you who knew and cared for Lt. Col. Holland could do everyone a favor by NOT trying to rush to his defense and make excuses, but rather ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 01:03:29 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... to give us some insights into the man, and what when wrong with his think and emotions that led him to this tragic end. If you do that, then maybe we can see the same seeds growing in others, and perhaps stop the process before it repeats itself in another tragic ending.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 01:05:18 Anonymous coward said

    Edinger S.
    Best wishes to all, especially friends and families of the aircrew who will always carry these scars.

    Steve Edinger, Frm USAF Capt. and a biologist who studies bird flight aerodynamics
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-13 01:14:41 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    One last thought. The laws of nature are not like human laws, where you get a ticket or go to jail for violating them. The laws of nature cannot be violated. Any attempts to do so can result in disaster!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-16 16:54:21 Anonymous coward said

    Tinsel AV8TOR
    Tragic waste. Dark Blue is a fascinating study of mostly personal, but also cultural and organisational, failings. The aerodynamic causes of the crash are almost immaterial, the bigger issue is CRM over 3+ years prior.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:24:00 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    To Meg Holland (and other who knew Col Holland) you said there is another side to this story, what is it? Are you talking about what the man, Bud Holland was like as a father, friend, neighbor, husband? Or are you trying to say there is another side to pinning responsibility for the accident on him?
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:24:27 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    To those who knew him when he was Lt or Capt or Major Holland, what was his flying like then? Obviously he had great skills, but can you tell us anything about his judgment and airmanship then? Were there signs of trouble to come? Did he fly the aircraft outside its operational limits then too?
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:24:56 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    For Meg and others trying to defend Lt Col Holland, you have got to ask yourself some questions. Some say it Wasn't Col Holland at the controls during the Fairchild crash, because he wouldn't do this type of thing. Are you also saying it wasn't him at the controls during the ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:25:21 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... 19 May 1991 air show, which violated some many standards and regulations; was not at the controls during the 12 July 1991 change of command flyover practices and actual event; not at the controls during the 17 May 1992 air show; was not at the controls and did not order (or at least allow) ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:25:50 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... a crew member to climb back to get pictures of the bombs dropping out of the bomb bay; was not at the controls during the 8 August 1993 air show; was not at the controls during the low-level and illegal formation flights at the Yakima Bombing Range on 10 March 1994; ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:26:21 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    was not at the controls during the 17 June 1994 practice sessions for the air show; and then finally was not at the controls during go around and 360 around the tower resulting in the fatal crash? That is not believable. First off, the command pilot is going to be at the controls during critical ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:26:57 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... maneuvers - takeoff, landing and anything with high risk, especially if it is close to the ground. The command pilot is responsible for and has authority over all the operations on the plane. If the copilot begins operating the aircraft in an unsafe or illegal manner, ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:27:26 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... it is the command pilot's responsibility to take charge and make the corrections. That is not "playing the blame game"; it's called "The buck stops here." Meg (and others), I know you want to believe, "He knew the limits of what a B-52 could do and would NEVER endanger the lives of others."
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:27:53 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    But Meg, you can't wish the facts away. The videotape shows your father repeated violating the limits. The excuse, "... if you don't push the limits sometimes, how would you know what to do if you faced a similar situation in real combat?" does not cut it.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:28:21 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    If you exceed the limits of the aircraft and destroy it (wing cracks and pulled rivets) or crash it, the ship is still lost as a combat unit. What you have to do is find tactics to use the aircraft effectively in combat while operating inside its limits.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:29:55 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    You cannot make the aircraft do impossible things, no matter who you are and how many hours & skill you have.

    Some say Col Mark McGeehan should not have tried ejecting.Wait a minute; the aircraft was out of control and in an unrecoverable position.What is a pilot suppose to do in that situation?
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:30:24 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    Give the bailout order and get out. When the stall warning alarm went off and the plane was in or near 90 degrees of bank angle, ~ 250 AGL, what can the aircrew do to recover to controlled flight? Nothing. It is very difficult to tell at what point the aircrew realized the ship was lost, ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:30:55 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... but it appears from the video there were 4-6 seconds of time from a 90 degree bank angle till it hit the wire. Is that enough time to eject? How much of that time elapsed between realizing the ship was lost and trying to eject?
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:31:22 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    Did Col Holland give a bailout order, or did he fail to recognize the ship was lost? Did his ego prevent him from admitting the ship was lost? Did Lt Col McGeehan try ejecting in response to a bailout order by Lt Col Holland, or just recognize the situation was hopeless?
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:31:50 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    Did Col McGeehan take command and give a bailout order? Is there a cockpit recording and a transcript in the accident report? Again, Meg Holland said, " That is the co-pilot who ejected. My father would have never [have] left a crew." It was your father's job to tell the crew to eject and ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:32:20 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... to get out himself when he saw the ship was lost. Col McGeehan did the right thing trying to bailout; he just did it too late. It is senseless to ride an out of control ship into the ground, and serves nobody and nothing. It is a bit of the "Great Santini" syndrome.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:32:50 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    The posting from Wow said, "He had finished the turn nicely. Did he start to roll it over and others intervened? He might have succeeded if they had let him?" Tell me you are kidding. Roll a B-52 at low speed 250 feet above the ground? If Lt Col Holland was planning to ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:33:16 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... try an aileron roll (actually a spoiler roll) in a BUFF, he would have waited till the air show, when the audience was there to see it, because it would be a one shot deal! Immediately after that he would have been grounded for life! He would also have done so with more altitude and airspeed.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:33:45 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    Technically an aileron roll can be done as a 1 G maneuver, at least in a T-37 or T-38, but in a BUFF? What about the lateral forces on the engine pylons and vertical stabilizer (tail)? Could they stand it or would they break? A B-52 (a D model?) lost its tail to mountain wave turbulence, ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:34:14 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.
    ... so how would the tail fair in a roll? How long would it take to complete the 360 degrees of roll? A B-52 is not known for having a high roll rate! How far would the nose drop in that time? I doubt there are sufficient test data from the B-52's development to answer these questions.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-18 03:34:59 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E.


    So much we don't know, at least in the publicly released information. Does anybody know what is in the official report, or where one can read the official report? Any cockpit recordings in it?


    Best wishes, especially to family and friends of the lost crew,

    Steve Edinger
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-19 14:39:35 Anonymous coward said

    Raven
    Perhaps he wasn't trying for a 90° bank - maybe he was going for a full roll..
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-19 14:46:06 Anonymous coward said

    Raven
    A couple of points that occur to me as a glider (sailplane) pilot: When you turn a long wingspan glider close to the ground, you have to be VERY aware of ground effect & wind gradient
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-19 14:52:53 Anonymous coward said

    Raven
    Essentially, if you banked left steeply, close to ground, your left wing would dip into 'slower' air (slowed by ground friction) close to the ground, and you could VERY easily stall your left wing, causing a classic stall/spin into ground.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-19 14:55:54 Anonymous coward said

    Raven
    Stall/spinning a glider like
    a Nimbus at 200ft would be curtains too. I wonder if wind gradient was a factor at Fairchild.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-19 14:58:55 Anonymous coward said

    Raven
    Whenever I watch this awful video, I always think, If only they had 15,000 ft underneath.. Very sad.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-24 06:29:34 Anonymous coward said

    Leoman
    Buds get a "go-around"; adds power, stores the undergear, picks up some speed and then commences a tight left hand turn at 60 degrees. Then levels out, then tightens it again, stalls and crashes. Why!? I think I know why...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-24 08:20:13 Anonymous coward said

    Leoman
    If you check out the airbase on Google Earth (47°36'56.68"N 117°38'49.87"W) you see a couple of bunkers just south of the runway.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-24 08:21:32 Anonymous coward said

    Leoman
    It's a nuclear arms storage area. I think the pilot was trying to avoid flying over that. A simpler way would have been to level out and continue south.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-24 08:23:04 Anonymous coward said

    Leoman
    Then again... What would have happend if the jet crashed at the storage area (it's less then 2 000 feet away)? Perhaps we where more lucky then we know...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:46:34 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    Getting a nuclear weapon (H-bombs in this case) to explode requires generating a precise implosion, Starting at all points around the sphere at the exact same time. It is no small technological feat, which is why places like Iran and N. Korea build fission bombs, using uranium or plutonium instead.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:47:08 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    My 4.5 years of Nuclear Surety training from the USAF tell me there was absolutely NO chance of a nuclear detonation, and all crewmembers on that plane had the same training and the same knowledge. There is a remotely small chance of the plane crash causing a non-nuclear explosion ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:47:40 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    ... (called a low order detonation), which would have scattered some radioactive material over several hundred square feet. But if the plane had been flying straight and level, there is virtually no chance it would have crashed into the Weapons Storage Area (WSA). The only logical reason for ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:48:14 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    ... Lt Col Holland to turn that sharply away from the WSA at that low an altitude is because he knew if he flew over it he would be grounded. This leaves us with two likely possibilities for Lt Col Holland's critical error, leading to a fatal crash. 1. While executing an improper go around ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:48:46 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    ... he mistakenly set a course over the WSA, attempted to avoid the WSA by pushing the aircraft outside it's flight envelope and crashed. 2. He planned to fly this tight turn around the tower on this improper go around, pushing the aircraft well outside its flight envelope and crashed.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:49:20 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    I must point out that in "Darker Shades of Blue" (www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm) and other accounts/analyses of the accident, nothing suggest that Lt Col Mark McGeehan had any history of trying to push the B-52 beyond it's limits, violating regs and tech order limits.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:49:50 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    On the other hand, Lt Col Holland had a history of doing so, born out in witness testimony and on video tape (see video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6991478050418604437&q=B-52&total=14915&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=se arch&plindex=0 ). You may find it helpful to read the case history in "Darker Shades"
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:50:18 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    ... to understand and recognize all the violations in the video tape (i.e., flying directly over people at low altitudes might not occur to most of us as a safety violation). Some will be obvious from common sense! My point is any suggestions that Lt Col McGeehan put the aircraft into ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:50:46 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    ... this unsafe position are absurd. The suggestion only distracts from the real questions, including: Why did Lt Col Holland attempt what he surely knew was impossible? and How do we make sure nobody else does the same? "Darker Shades" makes it all to clear how the command staff failed to ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:52:07 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    ... prevent this accident, but it doesn't delve into what went wrong with Lt Col Holland to lead him to this early grave, taking 3 others with him? Only addressing the accident and the events that led to it squarely, honestly and unflinchingly can bring some go out of a needless tragedy!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:52:40 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    As a point of reference to what these bank angles mean and why they are important, for an aircraft to turn with a 60 degree bank angle and maintain a constant altitude, it must pull 2 g (twice the force of gravity). To do that it must have an airframe that can tolerate that amount of strain ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:54:05 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E
    ... and sufficient power to maintain airspeed. Pulling g's drains airspeed unless you have the power to overcome it. So here is what the rundown looks like for maintaining a constant altitude at different bank angles:
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:54:45 Anonymous coward said

    Steve E

    30 degrees = 1.16 g (this is the normal bank angle of heavy aircraft and airlines)
    45 deg = 1.41 g
    60 deg = 2 g
    70 deg = 2.92 g
    75 deg = 3.86 g
    80 deg = 5.76 g
    85 deg = 11.47
    90 deg = 1/cos 90 deg = 1/0 = infinite (Cannot be done!)

  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-25 01:56:13 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger


    I don't know what the maximum g limit for a B-52 is or the maximum number of g's a B-52 can sustain without losing airspeed, but that 3.86 g at a 75 deg bank has got to be pushing, if not exceeding both limits!

    Best wishes,

    Steve Edinger, Dept of Biol Sci, Ohio U., Athens



  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-27 14:12:49 Anonymous coward said

    Bud Holland
    The tragic thing about this is had an enlisted person been guilty of the same things this jackass zipperhead was (dereliction, violating regulations, disobeying orders), he would have been court-martialed long before and discharged before he killed anyone
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-27 14:15:21 Anonymous coward said

    Bud Holland
    But because he was an officer and therefore "better" than an enlisted peon his conduct was tolerated, covered up and allowed to continue until he caused this tragic accident. I feel sorry for the other 3 victims families that their loved ones had to die at the hands of this idiot.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-29 18:22:54 Anonymous coward said

    Oilman
    Early post: "The last words heard by the tower from the pilot to the crew were, "Sorry guys...." "

    I've researched this crash quite extensively on the net and have found no references to cockpit conversations with the tower or between the crew.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-29 18:25:20 Anonymous coward said

    Oilman
    Someone in the crew would have to key the mike for the tower to hear the crew's conversation. I doubt that the pilot (Holland) could have keyed the mike while trying to regain control of the aircraft in the last seconds of flight.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-29 18:27:20 Anonymous coward said

    Oilman
    Did the AFR 110-14 publicly disclose transcripts of the crew's conversation? If so, please post website links. Thank you!!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-30 01:08:08 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    Oilman is correct, the person heard by the tower would have to key the mike to be heard. Generally, that can be done with a button on the yoke or throttles (depends on the plane). Also correct that the pilot would not be likely to take time for such a comment in the middle of trying ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-30 01:08:53 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    to regain control of a crashing plane. HOWEVER, if the account is correct and he did radio that to the tower, you have to ask some questions. Why chat on the radio instead of giving the bailout order and ejecting? Colonel Robert Wolff, the Vice Wing Commander (the Vice), was onboard as the ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-30 01:09:23 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    "safety observer" and apparently was the ranking officer onboard. Although the Aircraft Commander (AC) is in command of the plane, I would think his superior officer, the Vice (and safety observer), could say, "Stop! Level this thing out before you kill us all!" Did he? I don't think BUFF's ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-30 01:10:02 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    have a cockpit voice recorder, so we will never know. The tape of the practice sessions shows that there were numerous violations in both before the crash, which means there were numerous chances for the Vice to say, "Get the plane within regs or get us back on the ground!" Perhaps since it was ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-30 01:10:38 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    his fini flight, he was just trying "not to make waves". Lt Col Ken Huston, as the Radar Navigator, was not in a position where he had the authority to stop Lt Col Holland, and unfortunately neither was Lt Col McGeehan since he was officially sitting in the plane as the copilot.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-30 01:11:12 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    McGeehan could have relieved Lt Col Holland of command (mutiny?), but the Wing leadership had already failed to ground Holland in spite of his clear violations. In that light you have to ask, "Could McGeehan have relieved Holland during the flight, or would McGeehan have been court-martialed ...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-30 01:11:48 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    for stopping Holland from violating safety regulation, FAA regulations, Air Force regulations and technical orders?" Sounds like an absurd possibility, yet it seems like it would have been the likely outcome! Several people have asked why these men, particularly Lt Col McGeehan, were on the plane
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-30 01:12:26 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    with Lt Col Holland when they knew how dangerous he was. "Darker Shades" makes it clear Lt Col McGeehan was there because he prohibited members of his Squadron from flying with Lt Col Holland to protect them. His was a heroic act of self-sacrifice to save the life (lives) of his soldiers.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jun-30 01:13:06 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    I have to salute him as one of the Air Force's finest, and would have been proud to serve under the command of such brave and decent man. I also find his death the most grievous of all the grievous losses on that day. In a just universe, his attempt to eject would have succeeded.

    Best Wishes!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-01 00:45:54 Anonymous coward said

    Oilman
    Steve,
    I thought you posted website links earlier. Did the links somehow get zapped? Thanks.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-05 18:46:07 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    The links are still there (and below). One is to Darker Shades of Blue (a must read) and a long video, documenting many incredibly dangerous maneuvers, violating regulations, standards and common sense (a must see!)
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-05 18:46:42 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger



    www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm


    video.google.com/videoplay?docid= 6991478050418604437&q=B-52&total=14915&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=se arch&plindex=0



  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-11 18:14:19 Anonymous coward said

    steve, stfu
    Bud Holland was a 23 year aviator with over 5000 hours on type. He got complacent and reckless.
    p.s steve edinger, dep of biol sci??? didnt know that made u an expert on all things aviation
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-12 08:38:34 Anonymous coward said

    BritAviator
    Lets be clear here - this wasn't the first time 'Bud' Holland broke the tech rules for the aircraft and flying display rules.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-12 08:38:54 Anonymous coward said

    BritAviator
    While his supervisors carry a weight of the blame for not grounding him a lot earlier, he was the aircraft commander and 1st pilot of an aircraft that crashed doing a manoeuvre that he has done before. He had lots of 'history' of these types of illegal manoeuvres. He was clearly to blame.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:05:37 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    steve, stfu said, "p.s steve edinger, dep of biol sci??? didnt know that made u an expert on all things aviation." Well, well, here is a classic in the art of rhetoric as well as Fallacious Reasoning and Emotional Appeal! Instead of addressing the points made and disputing (or agreeing) with them...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:06:01 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    you impugn the reputation, qualifications, etc. of the person making those points. Such an approach may be worthy of a political debate among candidates, but is beneath a reasoned discussion. Be that as it may, I will lay all my cards down so you (and others) can decide what my hand is worth!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:06:32 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    1. At no time have I claimed to be an expert on all things aviation. 2. I spent a year at USAF flight school, where I learn a reasonable amount about aerodynamics, flight operations, regulations and procedures. Although I landed a T-38 well, I flew a lousy final turn (pretty wobbly on...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:07:02 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    ... airspeed and altitude!), which ended my "career" as a pilot. 3. I spent 6 years in the USAF officer, including Officer Training School and Squadron Officer School by correspondence. In that time I learned a great deal about command responsibility, leadership and management.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:07:28 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    4. Four of those years were spent as a Missile Launch Officer (plus a half in training for missiles), including nearly three as a Missile Combat Crew Commander and 1 as a Flight Commander. I have some understanding of command leadership and command responsibility.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:08:12 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    During those 4 years (plus the 1/2 year training), I took monthly exams on Emergency War Orders (how to fight nuclear war), Code Handling (how to handle the code components for nuclear weapons), Nuclear Surety (how to handle nuclear weapons, nuclear safety and what will and will not...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:08:42 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    make them blow up) and missile procedures (Minuteman II). Incidentally, any BUFF driver would also have similar Nuclear Surety training. 5. I have been a scientists (biologist) since graduating college 29 years ago. As such, my expertise is in designing experiments and collecting data to...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:09:12 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    test scientific hypotheses, and evaluating the scientific validity and logic of fact based (i.e., scientific) arguments. My particular areas of expertise are (oddly) bird flight (bird and vertebrate aerodynamics) and the evolution of bird flight, as well as fisheries management (my master's work).
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:10:34 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    I have a well developed "bullshit filter" as well as a good ability to get to and evaluate the facts and logic of an argument.

    With all that being said, I am not sure what your objection is to what I have said, or perhaps you simple object to me commenting on Bud Holland's crash because I am a
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:11:07 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    biologist. If you are objecting to my criticisms to Lt Col Holland pushing the plane outside it's specified limits or Air Force and FAA flight regulations, there are several BUFF drivers who have made comments here who can authoritatively explain why that is a mistake as well as what the limits...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:11:36 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    (bank and g) are for a B-52, assuming that information is not classified. But the general observation that exceeding the specified limits of the regulations and aircraft specifications stands, unless you want to claim that those limits and regulations are meaningless, and that the pilots and...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:12:03 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    engineers who defined them do not know what they are doing.

    Are you disputing my statement that, "The laws of nature are not like human laws, where you get a ticket or go to jail for violating them. The laws of nature cannot be violated. Any attempts to do so can result in disaster!"
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:12:30 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    If so, are you claiming a person can pick and choose which laws of nature to "follow", or that they can be "turned on and off"? Are you disagreeing with the table of g loads need for a level flight turn? If you are I'm sure you can look them up online somewhere, or you can do the math yourself.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:12:55 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    It is a simple trigonometry or vector problem (before you as, I have had around 30 semester hours of mathematics - a lot for a biologists! - including analytic geometry: 1.5 years of calculus; linear algebra and matrix theory; differential equations; introduction to discrete structures; and...
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:13:22 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    about 2 years of probability and statistics). Perhaps you object to someone who is not a professional pilot evaluating the actions of a pilot. If so, perhaps you could explain which portions of my comments and evaluations are wrong, why they are wrong coming from a non-pilot and
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:13:50 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    how they are wrong based on the data and logic, not a emotional appeal or emotional response to them. In the end, I guess I am not sure what your point was when you said, " p.s steve edinger, dep of biol sci??? didnt know that made u an expert on all things aviation."
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-14 02:14:48 Anonymous coward said

    Steve Edinger
    Perhaps you could explain what your point is to us, and logically (and based on the data) what mistakes I have made. If I have made errors in logic or data analysis, I want to know what they are so I can correct them!

    Best wishes,

    Steve Edinger, Biology Instructor, Ohio University


  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Jul-31 17:37:28 Anonymous coward said

    u dont need to know
    i am going to become a pilot and this stuff happens, yawll just need to be proud that we have people brave enough to fly!!!!!!!!!!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Aug-07 11:35:36 Anonymous coward said

    Voodoo
    Col. Holland was an amazing pilot. I happened to have been standing next to the guy taking this video when he went down. It's a shame he has to be remember like this.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Aug-26 00:04:57 Anonymous coward said

    Steph from Oregon
    I think people are casting judgment on pure speculation. Everyone thinks they know what happened, but since none of you were in the cockpit, I think you should quiet down and let the families have their grief. Lives, and a magnificent aircraft were lost that day. No more finger-pointing.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Aug-26 00:30:30 Anonymous coward said

    Steph from Oregon
    Incidentally, I found this cool "little" RC B-52 online:
    http://www.elchineroconcepts.com/B52_Model-640.jpg
    Which ironically, also crashed. Pity... that was one fine model. My heart hurts when any type of aircraft is destroyed; including the tiny ones.
  • Jeffrey Bania on 2007-Sep-02 23:26:57 Jeffrey Bania said


    I was there that day and it was horrible it happend a few days after a psycho shot up the base hospital this was one of the sadest weeks I have ever had. I will never forget that mushroom cloud.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Sep-05 16:03:31 Anonymous coward said

    IFR52
    All these people defending the indefensible, good guy or not, good pilot or not, he had a long history of recklessness and disregard of regulations and should have been grounded long before this happened.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:15:32 Pat McGeehan said


    My name is Pat McGeehan and Im the son of Lt Col Mark McGeehan, the acting Co-Pilot on board this fateful flight. Ive always tried to stay out of what I see as useless bickering between the familys of the 3 other crew members who were killed that day in June of 1994,
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:18:11 Pat McGeehan said


    but I came across this website, read some of the comments that were posted, and felt a need to post a response.The day my Dads BUFF went down changed my life forever.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:18:44 Pat McGeehan said


    I am the oldest of my Dads 3 sons, and myself, my Mom and two younger brothers watched from near the flight line at Fairchild as the accident unfolded
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:19:06 Pat McGeehan said


    - I was 14 years old then, and being the oldest, of course I had to pick-up where my Dad left off and carry my two younger brothers through the rest of their adolescent lives.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:20:28 Pat McGeehan said


    After high school, I followed in my Dads footsteps, attending the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs and graduating in 2003. I chose not to fly and instead served as an Intelligence Officer for a number of years, including a tour in Iraq and Afghanistan.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:21:16 Pat McGeehan said


    Ive since separated from the Air Force and I now own and run my own manufacturing production plant in my familys hometown of Chester, West Virginia.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:22:06 Pat McGeehan said


    With regards to the comments posted on this web site, a great majority of them are at the very least false and at the very most, atrocious. I understand the pain Col Hollands family must live with every day, along with the familys of Col Huston and Col Wolfe.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:22:29 Pat McGeehan said


    But let me say thisI have objectively studied a great deal about the accident and the events leading to it, and thus I have learned over the years to distance myself from the emotion I feel in order to render a logical and unbiased opinion.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:22:55 Pat McGeehan said


    During my 4 years at the Air Force Academy, I was asked my many flag officers to give countless briefings and lectures to various audiences on the accident (no doubt because of my unique position as Mark McGeehans son).
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:23:31 Pat McGeehan said


    Lt Col Tony Kern (author of The Darker Shades of Blue) served as the head of the History Department during my tenure at the Academy, and he was a close mentor and friend of mine.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:23:50 Pat McGeehan said


    In addition, I also wrote an analytical term-paper about the accident, and so with this in mind, please give a certain level of credibility to the following assessment I will provide.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:24:57 Pat McGeehan said


    Of all the 4 crew members on board the aircraft that day, my Dad was the only Air Force Academy Graduate. I feel that one advantage the Academy provides is that it instills a deep sense of character in a man.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:25:18 Pat McGeehan said


    This character stems through the Academys sacred Honor Code, which reads We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does. My Dad was a bit of an idealist, and he strongly lived his life by this Code, especially the toleration clause.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:25:45 Pat McGeehan said


    I believe this quality of refusing to tolerate poor character and leadership enabled him to act in the months preceding the accident to attempt to first ground Col Holland, and second, ensure his men were out of harms way.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:26:08 Pat McGeehan said


    From my research and interviews with the pilots and navigators under my Dads Command at the squadron levelit is clear that Col Holland had been a good experienced pilot and no one will question this fact.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:26:54 Pat McGeehan said


    But it is also self-evident that during the last few years preceding the accident, he had become undisciplined and had continually demonstrated poor-leadership to junior pilots at the squadron and wing levels.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:27:38 Pat McGeehan said


    From studying my Dads notes and his personal scheduling book, Ive noted that on at least 2 separate dates, months before the accident, he had scheduled meetings with Col Pellerin---the Group Commander and my Dads immediate superior in rank--- regarding Col Hollands flying habits.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:28:00 Pat McGeehan said


    . On March 17th, one entry in my Dads scheduling book reads Meeting with Col PellerinGround Bud Holland!.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:28:19 Pat McGeehan said


    Of course Col Pellerin and the Wing Commander Col Brooks never took action and unfortunately did not approve of my fathers request.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:29:13 Pat McGeehan said


    There is also ample evidence from the testimony of several pilots and from Col Pellerin himself that my Dad ordered his squadron not to fly with Holland.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:29:33 Pat McGeehan said


    In my Dads scheduling book, it appears that he did in fact track the mission and flight schedules at Fairchild for at least 2 months before the accident. He ensured that every time Holland flew, my Dad would put himself in the aircraft and thereby, remove his subordinates from the flight.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:31:01 Pat McGeehan said


    In fact, the very morning of the accident flight, my Dad ordered one of his junior pilots, Capt Mark Thomas, off of the aircraft.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:31:19 Pat McGeehan said


    Capt Thomas personally told me he was scheduled to ride-along in one of the B-52s jump seats, directly behind the cock-pit and next to where Col Wolfe would have been seated.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:31:41 Pat McGeehan said


    In short, my Dad would be embarrassed at the labeling of his efforts as heroic. He was a very devout Catholic and I know that if he were alive today, he would only ask that we pray for the families of Bud Holland, Ken Houston, and Robert Wolfe.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:32:01 Pat McGeehan said


    From the comments I have read on this website from Col Hollands daughter, I have noted that there is a sense of bitterness to them. I want the family of Bud Holland to know that I have moved on with my life and I do not hold not a single grudge against them or anyone else.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:32:23 Pat McGeehan said


    I hope that Col Hollands family can find the peace of mind that I have finally found. The accident was a terrible traumatic event that took place over 10 years ago.
  • Pat McGeehan on 2007-Sep-12 11:32:47 Pat McGeehan said


    We can best serve the memories of all 4 crew members who perished that day by not only remembering them, but my studying the causes of the accident and teaching future aviators how to prevent another one.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Sep-13 16:41:15 Anonymous coward said

    anominoys *****star general
    id say this pilot was good but the b-52 is a fragile auircraft cant do turns like that its suicide.......
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Sep-18 15:20:33 Anonymous coward said

    B-52RN (D/F/G/H)
    Read www.crm-devel.org/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm
    Reflect on many leadership failures. God Bless the families.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Oct-08 21:04:48 Anonymous coward said

    Wapiti
    BTW Steve E. The B-52 that lost its vertical fin during a low level test in the rockies was a H model Tail number 1023
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Oct-08 21:24:09 Anonymous coward said

    Wapiti
    Just an FYI to the beginning aerodynamicists posting. The B-52 H models has NO ailerons. They were found redundant and removed with the first G-model.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Oct-08 21:50:44 Anonymous coward said

    Wapiti
    BTW T/N 1023 landed safely at Barksdale after it lost its fin, a tribute to a well designed and constructed aircraft with a brilliant pilot Charles Fisher
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Oct-24 00:57:11 Anonymous coward said

    etridge
    The crash is 13 yrs old now and still a topic of conversation.Only 4 people know what really happened that day and they died in the crash.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Oct-28 03:08:33 Anonymous coward said

    People...please
    Seriously "STEVE E" and every negative comment out there; your comments are pathetic!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Oct-28 03:10:55 Anonymous coward said

    People....please
    Do you know for sure who was at the controls that day?? You guess no I bet?
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Oct-28 03:13:42 Anonymous coward said

    People....please
    For all the people who posted a negative comment get a LIFE!!!
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Oct-28 03:16:12 Anonymous coward said

    People....please
    Oh by the way "STEVE E" your lack of flying experience doesn't allow you to act like an expert.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Oct-29 07:48:25 Anonymous coward said

    Pat McGeehan
    I'm an expert...so yes, I know who was at the controls that day...so does anyone else with a logical brain
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Nov-20 05:58:00 Anonymous coward said

    Michael
    My heart goes out to all who suffer the loss of loved ones in this trajedy. To those who mentioned nukes where onboard another B52 that crashed, I can confirm that a B52 did crash with nuclear bombs onboard but that B52 crashed in Spain.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-03 12:36:16 Anonymous coward said

    John
    How very commendable Mr. McGeehan. Your comments are both selfless, and dignified. I'm sure your father is very proud of the way his son has turned out.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-03 12:36:30 Anonymous coward said

    John
    It's true that time has passed, and the blame game should not be played anymore. The memories of those lost, and the sorrow of those left behind are enough anguish. *RIP*
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-18 17:35:07 Anonymous coward said

    Neal
    The former radar navigator is a good friend of mine. He refused to fly with Holland for the airshow and Ken Huston took his place instead.

    I'm having dinner with my friend tonight. when I say grace before dinner, I'll include a prayer for those who lost their loved ones in the crash.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-18 17:56:52 Anonymous coward said

    Neal
    To Pat McGeehan: It's probably because of your father standing up for the men under his command, that my friend is alive today. Thank you also for serving our nation too.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-21 22:30:53 Anonymous coward said

    KnowItAll
    Whats all this business about not having ejection seats? I BUILT these things. The pilot and copilot go up, the navigator and other three in the lower part of the compartment FALL through the floor.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-21 22:32:48 Anonymous coward said

    KnowItAll
    To: Steve E. Only a year at USAF flight school?
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-25 00:38:39 Anonymous coward said

    Aerospace Engineer/ATP
    When you exceed published flight limits in the Flight Manual 1) You are a test pilot flying outside the tested envelope. Expect the unexpected.....
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-25 00:39:07 Anonymous coward said

    Aerospace Engineer/ATP
    2) Everyone who flies that plane after you will unwillingly and unknowingly fly a plane that has been flown outside the envelope. If the unexpected did not happen to you, it may happen to them.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-25 00:51:08 Anonymous coward said

    Aerospace Engineer/ATP
    In any aircraft, a steep bank lays the lift vector over towards the horizon. A horizontal lift vector holds you into the turn, but can't keep the aircraft at the same altitude. You end up falling towards the ground knife-edged....
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-25 00:55:46 Anonymous coward said

    Aerospace Engineer/ATP
    ..when this happens, the nose will drop through the horizon because airflow is striking the rudder from the side. In a big airplane, this happens slowly and by the time you realize that you have built up a big yaw rate.....
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-25 00:56:34 Anonymous coward said

    Aerospace Engineer/ATP
    ....there is no amount of opposite 'top' rudder that will correct it. You have to roll out of it using ailerons or roll spoilers and you have to have 15,000 feet.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-25 00:57:08 Anonymous coward said

    Aerospace Engineer/ATP
    In any even, there are two ways a pilot's flying career will end...you will get into an airplane and know it's your last flight...you will get into an airplane and NOT know it's your last flight.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-27 14:01:28 Anonymous coward said

    Doogle
    Everybody lost that day. Pat McGeehan's words should be the end of this. Respect the innocent and the guilty: judgment is not your right.
  • Anonymous coward on 2007-Dec-29 13:03:50 Anonymous coward said

    Aerospace Engineer/ATP
    'judgement is not your right'.
    Judgement is exactly what happens in a formal accident investigation. Responsibility is placed squarely on the shoulders of the person at fault. This is not a case of equipment failure. It is a case of pilot stupidity.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-11 11:01:29 Anonymous coward said

    German
    Many experts around here, some are for sure, others maybe wish they were but have never been at the controls of any aircraft. I read several reports and analysis about this accident and I disagree with
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-11 11:02:28 Anonymous coward said

    German
    anyone who says that this special incident is related in any way to the reputation Bud Holland seems to have had. As a glider pilot myself I agree with Raven that wind might have been a critical factor
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-11 11:02:51 Anonymous coward said

    German
    which added to the other factors which basically are a heavyweight aircraft, too slow at an angle of bank which was far too steep at an altitude which was far too low for that kind of stunt. But a crucial
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-11 11:03:16 Anonymous coward said

    German
    factor which was not mentioned here so far is distraction. I guess Mr. Holland was not in the process of flying and concentrating on his "agenda" any more shortly prior to the crash. He had to deal with a
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-11 11:03:37 Anonymous coward said

    German
    go around command, took a decision for a specific flight pattern for the new approach, probably realized that he was well out of parameters but stuck to his decision, convinced that he could make it.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-11 11:04:04 Anonymous coward said

    German
    That's the way most accidents happen - you're committed to your decision even if it's deeming on you that it might have been the wrong one. Many car accidents happen like this and I also saw a friend die
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-11 11:04:28 Anonymous coward said

    German
    that way in his sailplane when he had to abort takeoff due to a broken winch, turned around to land and stalled the plane in his last turn for final. The same story as with the giant B-52 in a small glider,
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-11 11:04:50 Anonymous coward said

    German
    set up by a disastrous mix of an uncommon situation, flight physics and human behavior: take off abort, too slow, aob too steep, too low and a "it's gonna be alright this time" attitude which is just
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-11 11:05:19 Anonymous coward said

    German
    simply human nature. Flying a jet into a ridgeline on a hot rod show might have been something different but I think this was just another accident. Though he was the AC and in full responsibilty of what happened nothing to judge on Bud Holland as hard as many "experts" do.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-15 18:33:44 Anonymous coward said

    George
    Not the ejection seat butthe escape hatch. Co-pilot started ejection sequence. He hated the pilot. Last words on voice recorder, pilot saying "sorry guys"
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-24 15:20:15 Anonymous coward said

    DOESN'T_MATTER
    The way you guys talk is absurd. You may not like the pilot or agree with his actions, but to talk about him like you do, while his family can see what you type, is totally uncalled for. Nothing you say will change what happened, so why bash someone's deceased father?
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-24 18:00:59 Anonymous coward said

    fucked over
    this was ordered in combat standard procedure as all of have read and viewed. holland took them on there last flight.which real sad. may god rest there souls
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-24 21:25:56 Anonymous coward said

    Dr. Chicago
    Sorry Meg, But Bud was the pilot. He'd pulled crazy stuff, prior to the Fairchild crash, numerous times before. A great many people refused to fly with him. The B-52 isn't a stunt plane. The Air Force came to the right conclusion: pilot error.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jan-25 14:08:33 Anonymous coward said

    BudMan
    I find it amazing that here we are, almost 14 years after this tragic incident, and people are still discussing it like it happened yesterday.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-10 03:51:52 Anonymous coward said

    dutch guy
    if someone was standing underneath that b-52 he just had an airplane of 51.2 m wide and 47.5 m long on his ass...
    i thik thats painfull
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-10 03:56:40 Anonymous coward said

    dutch guy
    all guys who think it was the pilots falt you're wright but i think if you say that you don't know how difficult it is to control such a big thing so shut the fuck up

  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-10 03:57:48 Anonymous coward said

    dutch guy
    fucked over you're damned wright


  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-10 03:59:34 Anonymous coward said

    dutch guy
    by the way i am dutch. dus hou je focking muil!



  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-25 09:28:26 Anonymous coward said

    HAD TO SAY IT
    dutch guy you are an ignorant moron
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-25 18:03:44 Anonymous coward said

    HM2FMF
    Sounds Col. Holland's daughter was trying to shift blame from her father to someone else by saying that he wasn't in control. Accept that your father was responsible, it won't help by blaming others. Of the 4 people on the flight, only 1 had a record of irresponsibility.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-25 18:07:53 Anonymous coward said

    HM2FMF
    And as far as the "academy makes better officers" argument goes, that is a load of horse manure. I've seen ROTC officers do well in combat and Academy grads fold. And vice versa. That is simple arrogance which is not based in reality.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-26 08:05:26 Anonymous coward said

    TankerKC
    Want a pant load on this thread. Folks (darksanly) claiming to have flown with Holland, but he cant even spell and thinks that all of the victims were O-6s.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-26 08:06:01 Anonymous coward said

    TankerKC
    Others (NikkiHuston) are claiming to be Hustons daughter and to have been in the air that day. The worst is Meg Holland saying she remembers her dad indicating that he would intentionally do this. All pure BS!
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-26 08:06:39 Anonymous coward said

    TankerKC
    Pat McGeehan looses all credibility when he indicates that his dad was a better officer because he went to the academy.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-26 08:06:57 Anonymous coward said

    TankerKC
    We had a bit of a cheating scandal when I was at AFIT. The class leader said he couldnt deal with it because, as an Academy grad, he had no concept of cheating. The culprits turned out to be Academy guys.

  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-26 08:07:51 Anonymous coward said

    TankerKC
    Booyah!
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-26 08:34:48 Anonymous coward said

    Pat McGeehan
    I apologize if that is what my comment indicated. I only meant to bring out the honor code I believe so much in---the same one my Dad did as well.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-26 08:35:22 Anonymous coward said

    Pat McGeehan
    I am very proud of my alma mater in Colorado Springs, as was my Dad before me.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-26 08:36:18 Anonymous coward said

    Pat McGeehan
    ...just as any other officer should be proud of their own school, regardless of where or which one---some of the best officer's in history were citizen-soldiers.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-29 16:22:33 Anonymous coward said

    Bemerish
    Pat - I tried to contact you after you left your last assignment re: your project at home.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-29 16:26:20 Anonymous coward said

    BB
    I'm in England now. Your father was a great man (I've read DSOB etc as well). Time to step away from these negative websites. Any way to get in touch with you?
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Feb-29 16:31:29 Anonymous coward said

    Pat McGeehan
    great to hear from you----you can e-mail me at mcgeehan@mountainsp.com, we'll go from there, looking forward to it
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Mar-16 22:47:49 Anonymous coward said

    chas
    Anyone ever heard of wind shear? It almost killed me once.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Mar-31 15:12:57 Anonymous coward said

    tiff
    has anyone ever thought that the just needed help?
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Apr-07 22:18:50 Anonymous coward said

    Dennis220
    Bud Holland: "The rules don't apply to me!" Holland = George W. Bush.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-03 10:46:43 Anonymous coward said

    Elvisf16
    I'm a pilot (military F-16 and civilian airline) and an attorney. No disrespect to his daughter, but Lt. Col. Holland had a well-documented history of serious breakdowns of discipline while flying airplanes.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-04 17:54:31 Anonymous coward said

    chad from tinker afb
    You don't realize how old this aircraft is till you work on it. I would have never stressed the airframe like Mr. Holland did. Watching the old clips of how Holland flew the BUFF told me he was a gambler, a lucky one till that last bet
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-08 21:36:55 Anonymous coward said

    Mac in OKC
    I was once a B-52F EWO at Carswell AFB & Anderson AFB, Guam (Arc Lite). Son was an AF Huey pilot at Fairchild and had just left helo practice landing site where the BUFF crashed, maybe 10 min prior to crash. I was there a few months later and big black spot of the crash was still very visible.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-16 19:07:30 Anonymous coward said

    Pilot96732
    I have been a pilot since 1965 and have long been a very careful observer of aircraft in flight. A factor uncommented upon here follows. There appears to be a considerable time in the last turn during which
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-16 19:17:26 Anonymous coward said

    Pilot96732
    the right spoiler is not deployed. It does not come up until the nose is well below the horizon and the aircraft is about two wingspans above impact. This is most counterintuitive for anyone flying any non-aerobatic
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-16 19:30:44 Anonymous coward said

    Pilot96732
    aircraft. I would expect that right spoiler to be partially or fully deployed during the entire turn, due to the pilot's continuing "feel" of the aircraft in such a critical attitude,
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-16 19:37:50 Anonymous coward said

    Pilot96732
    especially for an excellent stick and rudder pilot. This is irrespective of stall presence. It is not surprising that no bank recovery is ever seen.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-17 00:06:52 Anonymous coward said

    Pilot96732
    Aircraft which have no dihedral or are anhedral, such as the B52, can easily roll inverted from a 90 degree bank or with even slight use of the rudder to keep the nose above the horizon in that attitude. Why was there no roll control from the right spoiler continuously?
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-17 00:23:38 Anonymous coward said

    Pilot96732
    Hard right rudder can be seen up to three seconds to impact, when one frame shows zero rudder and then hard left rudder can be seen to impact. This very late change seems to shows a major lack of awareness of how dire the situation was. At this point the co-pilot was ejecting.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-20 05:30:34 Anonymous coward said

    Jones
    i worked on buffs for 10 years. a sad day for crews and aircraft. saw the video. wanted to cry.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-May-29 03:48:57 Anonymous coward said

    1ofGODZkids
    Just wondering if TankerKC realizes he should look under the person's name to read their comments. Trying to help, but am soooo new @ this.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-08 20:46:16 Anonymous coward said

    rob
    I think the guy just got plain bored with flying b 52 s so why not get crazy.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-10 00:45:07 Anonymous coward said

    magnat
    I would like to express my respect to the families who lost their loved ones in that fatal day, in my point of view they were all great men who died that day, although i feel that the accident could be avoided with some precaution from the part of the B52 pilot.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-11 14:51:44 Anonymous coward said

    Collin McGeehan
    My name's Collin McGeehan,and I'm the youngest son of Lt. Col. Mark McGeehan. I'm currently a 3/c Midshipman at the Naval Academy and ran across this website. I just wanted to agree with my brother, Pat. I don't hold any grudges against the Holland family and I keep them in my prayers.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-11 14:53:25 Anonymous coward said

    Collin McGeehan
    Every man that died that day was a patriot and the only way we can truly honor them is to love and serve this country as they did.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-18 01:15:35 Anonymous coward said

    Qlc01
    Condolences to all family members of all the crew who died. The instant finality of death is crushing - all blame thereafter is of no remedial effect whatsoever.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-21 01:33:59 Anonymous coward said

    Steve
    I know little about flying but much more about sensitivity regarding a berieved widow and two children without a father. Allow me to praise Col Holland for the two decades he gave to all of us.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-21 10:34:19 Anonymous coward said

    Rhoter
    Even Non-Pilots know with extreme turns your aircaft loses altittude.Duh what was that pilot thinking
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-21 13:28:43 Anonymous coward said

    Matt
    A note on the nuclear weapons depot. Bud Holland was NOT trying to avoid that. The steeply-banked turn around the control tower was a choreographed part of the upcoming airshow.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-21 13:29:43 Anonymous coward said

    Matt
    See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:B52_crash_overview.jpg

    If he was trying to avoid something in an effort to be heroic, he could have just flown down the runway centerline.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-21 17:49:24 Anonymous coward said

    TOO Close
    I was the 3rd closest witness to this crash besides the 2 SP's in the Blazer. I can still hear the scream of those engines and being able to see from wing tip to wing tip. Crazy to think that this was practice for his retirement flight.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-21 18:03:34 Anonymous coward said

    TOO Close
    I had just entered the WSA and was waiting for my buddy, we came back from Airway Heights with pizza's and movies for our crew.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-21 18:04:04 Anonymous coward said

    TOO Close
    Holland was doing stunts with that plane that where amazing. At one point, he accelerated and climbed so fast, I saw vapor trails on the tips of the wings when it was close to a power-on stall.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-21 18:07:36 Anonymous coward said

    TOO Close
    He had been following the KC-135 for .5 hour in the pattern when he finally got in front of it. This was the next manuver he performed about 300 AGL. Fortunally for me, he turned a couple seconds late.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-22 16:10:54 Anonymous coward said

    Opinionated
    My opinion is that Bud Holland was very capable with the airplane, just pushed too much and then something unexpected occurred. We all love to watch aerobatics with Bombers, but we all should study the tragedy and stop blaming Bud.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-22 17:10:54 Anonymous coward said

    TOO Close
    Your right Opinionated, I should stop blaming Bud and muffle those screaming engines. Who cares that he was soley responsible for those other men in the cockpit that I saw scrambling to eject. GOD BLESS BUD
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-22 22:11:50 Anonymous coward said

    B52IRN
    To the McGeehans. I flew with your Dad at Wurtsmith. He was a good stick. The quickest way for a pilot to tell a B-52 crew to bailout, is to bailout. It causes the bailout light to illuminate in each area.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-22 22:19:16 Anonymous coward said

    B52IRN
    I also had one opportunity to fly with Bud Holland at Castle AFB. While waiting for some F-16s to come play with us, he decided to show the student crew what the B-52 could do if maintaining 1G. He put the aircraft into a 120 degrees of bank.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-22 22:19:54 Anonymous coward said

    B52IRN
    We started at ~ 25,000 feet and rolled out between 3000 to 5000 feet lower. The rest of the instructors had words with him upon landing. Castle CCTS rules required all unusual maneuvers to be cleared with all instructors on the flight before being performed.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-22 22:28:38 Anonymous coward said

    B52IRN
    B-52s are hardy airplanes and with enough airspeed they can make high degree turns at low altitudes. BTW, the greatest B-52 pilot was Maj Steve Moore.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-23 02:02:47 Anonymous coward said

    Flapsb52
    To the McGeehan boys, I was one of your dad's copilots at Wurtsmith and even baby sat Pat and Brendan once. Your comments about your dad are all true and he would be very proud of how you have lived your lives since that tragic day and your comments on this site.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-23 02:04:42 Anonymous coward said

    flapsb52
    He taught me a lot about how to handle the old Buff and fly within the rules, but more than that he showed me how to lead a crew and respect those who maintained and supported the B-52 mission. He was a great mentor.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-23 02:07:25 Anonymous coward said

    flapsb52
    Do not get caught up in these ugly and often inaccurate comments. There are a lot of armchair fliers that have no idea how aircraft fly, especially a Buff which has many unique characteristics.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-23 02:09:07 Anonymous coward said

    flapsb52
    I ended my career with over 21 years and 6400 hours in both G and Hs and I was still learning every day. Becoming complacent, thinking you know everything about your aircraft and that you are the best at what you do will always set you up for trouble.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-23 02:09:40 Anonymous coward said

    flapsb52
    The T.O.s,rules and regulations have been written because of hard learned lessons, so that others may not have to experience what you lived. People that do not heed this lesson in life are walking a dangerous path. Godspeed,
    ELJ aka "Chief"
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-23 02:15:29 Anonymous coward said

    flapsb52
    B52IRN Ditto on Maj Moore. The best B-52 pilot and instructor I ever had the priviledge to fly with. He respected the rules and knew the limitations and hammered anyone that did not abide by them! It was an honor to fly and serve with warriors like that in the old 524th.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Jul-31 03:10:01 Anonymous coward said

    Banzai
    Was a member of the investigation team. Holland was flying at time of impact. Copilot's ejection attempt was outside the envelope (time, altitude and angle)
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Aug-12 20:58:50 Anonymous coward said

    Mike McCarthy
    I was an assistant scoutmaster of Boy Scout Troop 23 with Mark McGeehan at Maxwell AFB when Mark was teaching at ACSC.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Aug-12 20:59:48 Anonymous coward said

    Mike McCarthy
    I was honored to know him. He was a man of impeccable character and faith.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Aug-12 21:02:16 Anonymous coward said

    Mike McCarthy
    When my wife Cindy and I renewed our wedding vows in a very private ceremony we turned around after the ceremony was over and the only person in the pews that morning was Mark McGeehan with a big old grin on his face--
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Aug-12 21:03:10 Anonymous coward said

    Mike McCarthy
    I didn't tell anyone about the ceremony -- He just found out and made time to be there. He was and still is the most honest man I've known. I had never been so shocked and saddned in all of my life when I learned of his passing.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Aug-12 21:04:28 Anonymous coward said

    Mike McCarthy
    Patrick and Collin, I am overjoyed that both you and your brother Brendan are doing so well both personally and professionally. I look forward to hearing great things from you. I know your dad is proud of you. God Bless you all.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Aug-24 09:30:08 Anonymous coward said

    wife of a standboard p[lot
    My husband went to USAFA w/ Slim (Mark), & said he was a "good guy". He wouldn't allow members of his own sqaudron fly w/ the hotdog. Says a lot about the character of the man...not so much about the pilot or wing commander...
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Aug-29 22:46:03 Anonymous coward said

    B52IRN
    Flaps, was that you at the Albuquerque Airport a few months ago? JF My daughter is an airline pilot in Alaska. This accident was used in several of her college aviation classes. Hopefully others will learn from the mistakes made on this flight.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Sep-04 23:59:55 Anonymous coward said

    Colonel George Nixon, USAF (Ret)
    I knew your dad; was an ACSC classmate and played softball with him. I've been to your house in those Alabama days. Your dad is a saint and a hero. I know the story of the religious medal passed on before the flight. If you ever need mentoring/advice, call on me. dr.nixon@usa.net.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Sep-21 11:40:06 Anonymous coward said

    Tampaslice
    Total lack of crew coordination! All 4 crew are to blame, Lt. Col Mcgeehan failed to notice airspeed drop, as did Col. Wolff. They didn't do their jobs and paid with their lives. If Holland was so reckless, they should've been backing him up, assuring he didn't kill them all!
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Oct-04 07:49:51 Anonymous coward said

    RANDALL
    AS A PILOT THERE IS NO EXCUSE TO BE BANKING AN AIRCRAFT THAT LARGE AS IF ITS A FIGHTER. CO PILOT SHOULD HAVE SAID AFTER BANKING THE FIRST TIME THAT IT WAS RECKLESS AND TRY TO TAKE CONTROLS.
    WHY ISN'T ANY COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER DATA RELEASED, BECAUSE ITS MILITARY AND NOT NTSB?
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Oct-09 08:01:19 Anonymous coward said

    Cyirra
    No voice recorder or black box on a B-52
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Oct-30 18:11:07 Anonymous coward said

    Magoo
    Thruth is, only Holland knew the reasons, not even the other 3 could figure out the reasons in their last seconds of life ! When they noticed... it was too late. And the co-pilot decided to die differently. Bad day ! Holland family: so is life. Sorry for all of you. You deserved an explanation.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Nov-18 10:27:41 Anonymous coward said

    Looking Glass
    Lt. Col. Holland - a tremendous pilot. Obvious engine failure. He protected this nation when we are sleeping safe and sound. If we asked Mr. Holland to ram a big one down the commies throats, he would have accomplished the task. Don't any of you besmirch this patriotic and brave man.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Nov-18 10:28:02 Anonymous coward said

    Looking Glass
    Lt. Col. Holland - a tremendous pilot. Obvious engine failure. He protected this nation when we are sleeping safe and sound. If we asked Mr. Holland to ram a big one down the commies throats, he would have accomplished the task. Don't any of you besmirch this patriotic and brave man.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-06 01:51:03 Anonymous coward said

    Sandman
    Colonel Holland was an excellent "Stick", and at one time a very good pilot. However,he was an unscientific pilot. He did not, literally, know what he was doing at the time he stalled the aircraft.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-06 01:57:22 Anonymous coward said

    Sandman
    All of Col. Holland's stall recognition/recovery training and experience was in wings level, "unaccellerated" flight, and almost all flaps up.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-06 02:03:44 Anonymous coward said

    Sandman
    He neglected the guidance in the flight manual concerning the lack of buffet (stall warning) in an accelerated stall or a flaps-down configuration.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-06 02:10:28 Anonymous coward said

    Sandman
    The mishap video reveals that the left wing was in a stalled condition while the aircraft vector was still upward, and Col. Holland was still commanding left roll.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-08 20:55:26 Anonymous coward said

    Baloney Grinder
    This crash is extensively documented. The A.C. was an out-of-control (no pun intended) ego maniac. It is not patriotic to fly with a man like Holland--he should have been stopped--this was predictible and avoidable.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-08 20:58:46 Anonymous coward said

    Baloney Grinder
    This crash is extensively documented. Holland should have been grounded long before this happened. It was predictible and avoidable.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-09 15:00:21 Anonymous coward said

    Sandman
    The crash has indeed been extensively documented. The facts are clear enough. I believe we should avoid discussions of such things as Patriotism and Sanity, however. Patriotism has nothing whatever to do with Airmanship, Piloting Skill, or the lack thereof.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-09 15:04:42 Anonymous coward said

    Sandman
    From my personal knowledge of Col. Holland over a period of several years, I would categorize his Patriotism as "absolute" and "beyond question." The same goes for Col. McGeehan.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-09 15:30:17 Anonymous coward said

    Sandman
    Similarly, they were both very brave men, if we consider bravery as the willingness to take risks in the service of a higher purpose. But at the crucial moment in this culmination of a long chain of events, what was needed was Airmanship, not bravery or patriotism.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-09 15:35:43 Anonymous coward said

    Sandman
    And Col. Holland's Airmanship had been deteriorating for a long time. Col. Holland had been engaged in not simply dangerous behavior, but a pattern of increasingly dangerous behavior. The wonder is not that he crashed, but that he avoided crashing for so long.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-27 04:52:08 Anonymous coward said

    Colin
    Steve E, and P. McGeehan, Sandman, these are a few of the saner heads around here. While the man, Bud Holland may have been a great father and decent all-around guy,
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-27 04:54:31 Anonymous coward said

    Colin
    as an airman, I submit that he had no business in the sky. It takes a lot more than some stick and rudder skills to make a great airman... Lt. Col Holland obviously did not have those skills.
  • Anonymous coward on 2008-Dec-27 05:00:58 Anonymous coward said

    Colin
    by the way, if anyone doubts my qualifications, I have 41 years in the business and currently I command B-747's. I've known more than my share of Bud Holland type pilots.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Feb-19 16:39:11 Anonymous coward said

    FAFB Crash/Rescue
    Anyone remember the size of the field that it went down in? Afew feet in any direction would of been bad for A LOT of people, survival school, SP's in buses at shift change, ATC or the fire truck crossing at the gate.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-May-24 03:27:57 Anonymous coward said

    WIL
    This was very saddening to see. I must say that looking at the video makes me wonder how much more can happen until people realize, everything happens for a reason and no one is to blame. Life is full of lessons. GOD bless everyone who seeks him.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-May-30 21:46:01 Anonymous coward said

    Jacob t
    my friend was there and he was standing next to the pilots son when the plane crashed then another friend when he was leaving air force piloting school he saw the new arrivals and the pilots son was there lets just hope his son doesn't take after his father
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Jul-23 05:33:08 Anonymous coward said

    Mr. Hyphy
    R.I.P. to the air crew and unless you were actually in the plane or you were actually one of those people how would you know how to judge this horrible tradegy?
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Aug-18 12:47:53 Anonymous coward said

    Thomas M.
    I just want to say that as much as we all have our opinions as to what we think happened & what we saw on the video - lets never forget that good men died that day!
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Aug-18 20:22:05 Anonymous coward said

    Thomas M.
    I will say this though had the people in charge who were well aware of what was going on - simply done what they were supposed to - this very well could have been prevented... Those good men might still be alive today! Those who were in charge should have been held accountable...
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Aug-18 20:24:49 Anonymous coward said

    Thomas M.
    I don't know if they were... Pat McGeehan I know your father is looking down with pride for the comments you made!
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Sep-18 16:33:47 Anonymous coward said

    IFlySky5
    All said & done the (AC) aircraft commander is responsible party here for loss of life & aircraft. Bud Holland was the AC on this flight he is to blame! He was either on the controls or allowed them to be manipulated banking the aircraft beyond the dash parameters.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Oct-22 05:44:21 Anonymous coward said

    DawgDays
    In Air Command and Staff College, this crash and the sequence of events that led to it was a topic in accountability.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Oct-27 18:37:41 Anonymous coward said

    HawkerDriver
    I don't believe anybody took off that day with intent of not coming home...an accident happened for whatever reasons, learn what we can from it and move forward. Raise your glass to the west in a toast to the pilots & crew that have gone before us...tailwinds forever!
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Oct-30 02:22:41 Anonymous coward said

    sp steve
    I was an SP at castle when this happened. Very sad. I heard years later on the discovery channel that the pilot was turning to avoid another aircraft that was entering the airspace. Is this true?
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:05:20 Anonymous coward said

    X AFoutlaw
    My first duty base after Shepard AFB,TX technical school was good old Fairchild AFB, WA. From new years day 1998 to about 24th June 2000 when i left for Kunsan AB ROK.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:09:19 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    This was my first base as a jet engine mechanic on KC-135R`s. First in black flight, but they just re aranged it into Falcon flight and Eagle flight 92 AGS for those who know.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:12:32 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    I did not know much about CZAR52 crash, just saw it in wildest videos i believe,until i got to the base and found out it happend here from the guys in the shop. This was three and a half years after the crash i was there but it still was a big topic.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:15:00 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    Not going to call his name, but my newcomers sponcer was there and saw it the day of the crash. Also.. he was on the detail for the recovery of bodys of those who lost there lives that day.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:17:54 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    Also reckage which there are some guys that have titanium compresser and turbine blades from thoses TF-33 engines that was all over..even logged in building walls nere by.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:20:24 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    I will not give out details of what he said of the crew for the sake of the families..but it made me feel so sad for them, even Lt Col Arthur "bud" Holland.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:22:27 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    I feel so sad for Lt Col Mcgeehan because he was just on his way out of the aircraft!(half way up the rails he said). It brings up sad feeling even as i am typing this.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:32:54 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    As Adults..We all know what happend. If you watch all the airshow videos from 1991 till the crash, also the 30ft or less AGL pass over the ridge in Yakima(which i have been to a few occations)we dont need these crazy ideas of what happend.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:44:34 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    theorys like" Mcgeehan was flying at the time of the crash" retards..dont you see the hatch blow off cuz he was trying to eject!! and there are to levers left and right side of the ejection set to pull!!
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 13:52:07 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    And for those people who just did not watch enough TV, B52`s have ejection seats lol. Bud was pushing it for years,then one day he pushed it to far! and it was a sad day where people lost fathers in a Fire Ball.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 14:05:45 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    If you want to blame someone or a grope of people,dont blame Lt Col Bud Holland, blame the Officers and commanders over him for not doing nothing about his behavior for at least 3 years before the crash.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 14:19:31 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    I was a tall young black male lower enlisted airman that showed no fear of white people like other negros was born to do.. so (people)did wrongs to me and told lies after to cover it up.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 14:24:26 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    I would complain to there superiours and because i was Black and they was not(sometimes),had a stripe or two more than I, was in the"good old boy club"and very good story tellers..crimes again me was sweept under the rug.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 14:31:25 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    So i know what happend when Lt Col Mcgeehan and other Officers went to superior's to stop this crash from happening..and you all know it too but pretend you dont in the court room. Thats why i dont blame Lt Col Arthur "Bud" Holland too much.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 15:15:46 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    If anyone,even Buds daughter Meg could furnish a photo of Lt col Arthur Holland RIP,could you E-mail it to me at dchrist223@gmail.com?? He has always been a legand at Fairchild and i never knew how he looks
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-02 15:21:03 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    Its like the Air Force was so angry with him,they try to erase his exsistans..like what they try to do with me lol. people.. we all are not perfect, some of us are special in our own way. So me and Bud got somthing in coman lol X AF outlaws lol
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-08 00:51:56 Anonymous coward said

    MSGT Dick Ervin98750
    This was a tragic accident for the Air Force/Air Guard Community @FAFB
    one of my Combat communications crews was 1/2 mile from this incident.
    coupled with the FAFB clinic shootings and the KC 135 crash
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-08 11:46:28 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    This reply is for SP Steve.. the majority word At FAFB is that the "pilot" increase his bank sharply to avoied flying over the NUKE weapon storage area on the other side of the Main Base.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-08 11:55:33 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    Information from another user on this blog that he was in a Buff in the pattern during the time of the crash and did not say Bud banked hard to avoid them.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-08 12:00:06 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    Also in the Video that the KC-135 that was in the pattern had just landed,the runway was in use,thats why tower told CZAR52 to go around. So i say he did not try to avoid another AC
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-08 12:06:59 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    MSGT Dick Ervin98750 you are right.. The shooting at the hospital 2 days before and the crash realy had the people at FAFB at there lows.I Have good friends who was there at the time tell me all about it. I do remember the FAFB ANG KC-135E crashed in Germany
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-20 22:50:46 Anonymous coward said

    signz
    Its fairly obvious what happened here, Bud put on a good show and had a good history as a rudder and stick man. They overlooked his transgressions because they needed him for the many shows he did and this is why they kept him around.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-20 22:55:28 Anonymous coward said

    signz
    The fact is, Bud simply got used to pushing the aircraft to its limits and he pushed it too far. Bud bears the most blame but the commanding officer is also guilty.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-20 22:59:16 Anonymous coward said

    signz
    I'm pretty sure Bud was at the controls and knew just what he was doing, He just went too far, Meg needs to accept the facts and get over the denial shes living in.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Nov-20 23:03:29 Anonymous coward said

    signz
    A barrel roll in a B-52? Maybe, Its been said it was a life long ambition of Buds. He would have to do it slow and high, but it would probably damage the AC.
  • Anonymous coward on 2009-Dec-05 21:26:35 Anonymous coward said

    B52IRN
    Signz. A former B-52 gunner told me of an unplanned barrel roll over Vietnam, avoiding SAMs. He was on board.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:28:53 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    X AF outlaw: "If you want to blame someone or a grope of people,dont blame Lt Col Bud Holland, blame the Officers and commanders over him for not doing nothing about his behavior for at least 3 years before the crash."
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:30:41 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    I think this summarizes it all. Everyone wanted to share Holland's very special success as AirShowman 'cause nobody else had courage to do it.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:31:13 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    And I believe everyone with little or no exceptions wanted to make it part of his own success, be connected this or another way, and all that directly or indirectly pushed Holland towards more and more stunts.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:32:02 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    But once fatal error happened - nobody wanted to share responsibility. Shame on you people.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:32:24 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    If inevitable wouldn't happen most of you would say today he was a remarkable ace and living legend and it was your honor knowing him.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:33:54 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    Why nobody had enough guts and brain despite McGeehan's attempts to oppose and try to tell him "that's enough, bud" right there?
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:34:15 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    Or help create safe environment for those stunts?
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:34:33 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    And why everyone becomes this smart, bold and fearless to express obvious things after the crash?
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:34:58 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    ' Cause he's an easy target. And those who were actually responsible may wash their hands.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-04 13:35:25 Anonymous coward said

    accel
    So blame his officers and commanders and all others who satisfied their ego with Holland's help but have no real courage to admit their fault.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-05 17:32:57 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    Well said accel
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-05 18:11:17 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    To everyone who reads and comments on this blog, the first photo up top,left side on this site is disturbing! It shows both left and right wing spoilers up.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-05 18:23:43 Anonymous coward said

    X AF outlaw
    I look at the crash videos over and over again on youtube and i also am disturbed by the action of the buff just or right after the zoom and enhanced snapshot photo from the video was taken.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-14 05:40:05 Anonymous coward said

    CMEI

    X AF outlaw wrote: "To everyone who reads and comments on this blog, the first photo up top,left side on this site is disturbing! It shows both left and right wing spoilers up."
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-14 05:41:35 Anonymous coward said

    CMEI
    I don't pretend to know anything about the control systems on this aircraft. The only thing I've flown with wing spoilers is a Lear 25D.

    I've looked at the very same thing in that picture and wondered everytime WHY both spoilerons are in the up position.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-14 05:43:32 Anonymous coward said

    CMEI
    Can ayone clarify if that is a normal position for these control surfaces during the regime of the flight?
    I agree the aircraft departed from controled flight due to wing stall.
    Of that there is no doubt.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-14 05:44:52 Anonymous coward said

    CMEI
    Is it just the delayed reaction to the pilots reversal of the roll controls and the inboard (left) winf spoileron has simply not been retracted by the hydraulic system before the right wing spoileron was deployed by the system?
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-14 05:46:00 Anonymous coward said

    CMEI

    It looks as if the AOB may not have been the only factor contributing to the total loss of wing lift...although the AOB is, no doubt, plenty of reason to cause the tip stall and the resulting 'slide to the low side.'
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-14 05:46:54 Anonymous coward said

    CMEI

    But. . . can we get some comment from you B52 drivers or crewmen on those spoilerons both being deployed at the same time in a high g turn at low airspeed?
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jan-18 18:56:46 Anonymous coward said

    Larry
    From what I have seen, Bud Holland was a great pilot - a legend in the Air Force. The problem was, he too started believing he was a legend and in the final analysis discovered that physics didn't care.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Feb-02 13:43:28 Anonymous coward said

    just sayin
    I believe the pilot was trying to go near vertical in front of the spectators with disastrous results.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Mar-15 19:45:43 Anonymous coward said

    Serf # Hellenic Air Force
    16 years past and still talking for this crash
    i know is a way wierd how tha hell he could do manuvers like that and in a typical go around to make this big mistake
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Mar-15 19:46:20 Anonymous coward said

    Serf # Hellenic Air Force
    i like to ask is there any voice recorder script or audio anywhere? did any one find one over these years?
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Mar-15 19:46:37 Anonymous coward said

    Serf # Hellenic Air Force
    can the crew relatives tell us if the know any one told them the last conversation the crew had and post it here? my best regards to the crew famls RIP
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 18:09:58 Anonymous coward said

    circle drive
    #1 Bud's career had been shut down long before this incident, he would never make col. he had been in the squadron too long. His admirer who was a general in SAC/ACC saved his career a few times.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 18:22:42 Anonymous coward said

    circle drive
    . #2 3 previous wing commanders did nothing, two of them with direct combat experience in the B-52, they knew the outer limits of this aircraft..with rivets popping out the wings they still did nothing. These commanders knew the consequences of grounding Holland, it could end their career.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 18:24:41 Anonymous coward said

    circle drive
    #3 Col. Pellerin was a KC-135 pilot and an ego maniac. He was basically on his way out the door, more interested in padding his harvard lined resume, his star was rising. Bill could read a book or write a nice poem, he looked good on paper at the pentagon, paper can't fly an airplane though
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 18:27:02 Anonymous coward said

    circle drive
    .#4 Richards spent half of his time away from the base anyway and I don't mean in downtown spokane. Bottom line, everyone was more concerned about their careers upward mobility than taking the fall for some washed up pilot who had idiot friends in high places.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 18:30:20 Anonymous coward said

    circle drive
    Answering some of the previous posts, Pellerin retired as a LTC. Richards career hit the brick wall as well. 1 star. The others had either retired long before or were getting their time in teaching at the AF academy.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 18:31:33 Anonymous coward said

    circle drive
    There were also rumors that the person flying the plane was not bud, but someone being instructed by Bud. We will never know this. I feel great sorrow for all their wives and children. God Bless.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 20:08:19 Anonymous coward said

    Darker shades of Reality
    ACC forced Fafb leadership to accept Pellerin as the new DO, as they had bigger plans for him. Notice the word forced. Who was the guy in ACC that championed his placement?
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 20:16:18 Anonymous coward said

    Darker shades of Reality
    There was an objection to Pellerin because of his former leadership style..."objection noted."you know. Holland and Pellerin were protected and being forcefully placed by flag officers in ACC.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 20:34:32 Anonymous coward said

    OER
    The leadership in SAC/ACC set the cornerstone for this tragedy, make no mistake. Base leadership was afraid of pissing of those Generals in SAC/ACC that were watching.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 20:42:15 Anonymous coward said

    Club Fairchild
    4 wing kings/coutless sq commanders/3 Dos. and Holland is left unchecked. It's called protection folks. Hollands wife knows it, maybe she needs to tell it.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 21:07:13 Anonymous coward said

    KellyF disobeys direct oredr b52
    Gen Fogleman/first AF Academy grad to become af chief of staff/retired a year early.why?Kelly Flinn was being protected by the W/house&Senate.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-May-31 21:19:17 Anonymous coward said

    The best AF chief of staff period
    Fogleman's advice had been ignored and he felt her situation set a dismal example for all af aviators. The commanders at fairchild were in the same situation..powerless b/c of outside interference.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jun-26 02:32:42 Anonymous coward said

    In the know
    Visit http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/Czar52Crash.htm for an excellent summary of the accident
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jul-17 04:25:24 Anonymous coward said

    Airwave
    The often promoted idea that the PIC banked over hard left to avoid the Nuke storage area - makes no sense at all. He was based at FAFB, therefore he obviously knew the airfield layout intimately, he planned the flying display, and before the airshow, he practiced the scripted manoeuvres.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jul-17 19:45:11 Anonymous coward said

    Mark Lincoln
    As a child, I often listened to airline pilots swearing they though 'Ockey' was a great pilot, and he how they could not imagine how he ended up in a smoking hole. Yet many times I had heard them say 'Ockey' was going to end up in a smoking hole if he cept flying like he did.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Jul-17 19:47:52 Anonymous coward said

    I understand the passionate pleas
    Of children and friends.

    The horrible fact is that Holland flew his airplane and passengers into a smoking hole.

    To watch the video is sickening, not because I know how it ends, but because it is clear seconds before, that it had to end badly.

  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:10:44 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    Folks, it is never good when a B-52 crashes. Let alone place blame. I have personally been involved with two B-52 crashes.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:11:59 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    1) was 0040 at K.I. Sawyer. My crew and I were the first ones to the rolling cockpit when it stopped after watching it blow in mid air.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:12:57 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    The blame was placed on maintenance for not reinstalling a spark arrestor in the mid tank fuel pump.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:13:25 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    During the touch and goes the mid tank fuel pump sparked causing the mid air explosion. Miraculously everyone survived though not all flew again.C669I
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:13:59 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    Number 2) was during Desert Storm, when (I don't remember the tail number)when electircal failure caused problems 1 mile out while over the Indian Ocean. The IP advised not to lower flaps but they pilot had already lowered flaps so he raised flaps which shorted out all electrical.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:14:30 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    The plan crashed shortly after. Everyone but the radar nav ejected only 3 were found and remenants washed up on shore for a week after. Blame was placed on the pilot for raising flaps after the IP instructed him not to lower the flaps. The fault was an electrical mechanical failure not the pilot.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:15:18 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    My point here is that for every crash blame or findings for a better word is documented. It doesn't matter who is at fault, people died. It is horrific to think we as human beings would attack the family members of the men who died in these terrible accidents.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:16:15 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    No matter who was at fault or what the investigative reports are. Let's have some compassion and reserve comments.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:16:40 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    I for one am today a flyer who does understand the number of variables that can't be planned for that can cause crashes and I only fly single engine props with B-52's the variables grow exponentially.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:17:17 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    Both of the crashes I have been involved with haunt me to this day. I remember the day the plane crashed at Failrchild and how even us stationed at K.I. Sawyer felt.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-11 14:17:41 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF Mechanic
    Remember the good the men and families involved did and forget the rest. It is a selfless act to serve this country. Keep it at that. It has been long enough.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-23 17:54:52 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF pilot's son
    Watch the video--at about 3.5 seconds before impact, the engine exhaust trails all disappear simultaneously. Why? Flameout or did someone pull the throttles back
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Aug-23 17:59:27 Anonymous coward said

    BUFF pilot's son
    Running the engines at idle in that situation obviously isn't what a pilot would intentionally do--unless he was trying to impact the ground.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Sep-05 01:39:01 Anonymous coward said

    B52IRN
    Buff Mechanic. The crash in the Indian Ocean was determined to be crew error.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Sep-05 01:39:49 Anonymous coward said

    B52IRN
    The report indicated the crew thought there was a fuel leak and started shutting down fuel tanks. In fact, a checklist item was not completed and a fuel transfer was not completed. The engines started shutting down for lack of fuel. That caused various electrical failures.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Sep-05 01:41:22 Anonymous coward said

    B52IRN
    The navigators attempted to bail out, but were to low for a successfull bailout.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Oct-03 13:00:39 Anonymous coward said

    gt
    This guy was unsafe! Wreck less and as a result killed 3 people. He had a very bad record regardless of his so call stick and rudder skills.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Oct-03 13:04:04 Anonymous coward said

    gt
    Think about it? If he was such a great stick and rudder pilot, why did other airman refuse to fly with him and where did his so call skills take him? Straight to the ground dead along with 3 other innocent lives.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Oct-03 13:04:31 Anonymous coward said

    gt
    He should have been removed from flying a long time ago. Unfortunately I blame the DO/Wing commander for failing to be an effective leader and failing to remove and unsafe pilot. The consequences could have been worse with more innocent lives lost.
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Oct-05 08:06:16 Anonymous coward said

    daniel
    does anyone know where there is a good aerodynamic explanation of how the accident happened.i need to do an assignment on the aerodynamic aspects of this accident and am struggling a bit. eg what bank angle did the aircraft stall, the role swept back wings play.can anyone help me?thankyou
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Oct-05 08:10:25 Anonymous coward said

    daniel
    does anyone know where i can get an in depth aerodynamic explanantion for why this aircraft crashed? not about the pilot and his personality, just aerodynamics, like what angle did it stall at etc..thanks
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Oct-21 01:10:52 Anonymous coward said

    June
    @ Daniel:
    Concerning your question: You might want to write to me at
    Juniatha_s-b52@yahoo.de
  • Anonymous coward on 2010-Oct-22 14:53:46 Anonymous coward said

    JLeech
    I knew Mark M.(the CP) at Air Command and Staff College (90-91). I wish I could have been half the gentleman he was. A great man, a great American, a great Air Force officer. See you on the back half Mark!
  • 130 vet on 2010-Nov-13 21:51:23 130 vet said

    We were next in pattern, diverted to Spokane then ignored, no investigation. We left. Co's initial response was "..they sure have big training fires down here.." Note our base did have fires that seemed this big, just not within the perimeter. Seemed like 2-3 minutes before tower cleared airspace.
  • ex B-52 aircrew on 2011-Jan-16 21:40:58 ex B-52 aircrew said

    My son, now retired, was a helicopter pilot at Fairchild when this happened. He had been practicing landings in virtually the exact spot where the B-52 augered in. He was vectored away to a different area several miles to the south of the crash site. I was there a couple of weeks later and saw the very large burn spot.

    I have read much of the proceedings and analysis of the whole sorry affair. Holland was a known violator of safety-of-flight directives and many other officers refused to fly with him. One or more of his superiors were disciplined for their knowing negligence in allowing Col Holland's actions to continue after they became obvious.

    No, the B-52 isn't capable of such maneuvers. I was scared on more than one occasion by incorrect actions of the pilots with whom I flew in B-52s between 1963 and 1966, including around 20 missions in Vietnam.

    Mac in Oklahoma City
    USAF (61-81), Retired
  • Dr. Tracy M. Baker on 2011-Feb-10 10:36:11 Dr. Tracy M. Baker said

    I have read this story over and over and watched the video many times and, having been in the Air Force, I unfortunately understand how it happened. People in positions of power get inflated conceptions of themselves and develop unrealistic plans, either long term or, in this case I believe, in the spur of the moment. This makes them do things that cause their self destruction, sometimes along with the destruction of others. I have read Dr. Tony Kern's analysis of this incident and the preceding events which allowed it to happen and have seen many other examples of the same sorft of thing during my active duty years in the Air Force. Given LtCol Holland's obvious thorough knowledge of the B-52s capabilities, he undoubtedly knew what he was doing was suicidal(not to mention homicidal!!!), but to call it suicide is simplistic, though that is what it was. He was not an idiot, but doing what he did was idiocy and actions clearly of someone who was ready to not only die, but take some others with him. Those actions have put him squarely in the history books to be remembered for hundreds, maybe thousands of years, likely his long term goal in performing those idiotic acts. We see the same in the actions of other "madmen" who attempt to or do kill public figures or commit mass murder for obscure or no apparent reason. These are people on the edge who see their idiotic acts as the only way to gain world renowned fame(or infamy). With the senior officers delegated to fly with him on this day, he could probably see the "handwriting on the wall" that this was either his last or nearly last flight. Then, when confronted with the frustration of an aborted landing and likely his copilot(whom he hated)admonishing him not to fly over the Weapons Storage Area, he said to himself "to Hell with it all" and put the airplane in a manuever from which he knew he could not recover. While not necessarily committing suicide, he was ACCEPTING suicide as his end. This is all much supposition on my part, but having seen much of the same kind of mindset from others in my life, I can say it is a realistic and likely scenario. It was also a way of him avoiding the ultimate shame of his life, the loss of flying status. As a physician, I have had much training and education in the field of Psychiatry and Psychology(more than the average physician by far)and have seen this kind of mindset in many others. Some would logically call it "Temporary Insanity", a term frowned upon by most. But how many of us have ever done something which caused negative consequences and afterwards we said to ourselves "Wht did I do that, it was crazy?" This is not to trivialize what he did, but to point out that we need to think hard about what we do and consider the short-term AND long-term consequences before we act. It should also be considered that, in the events preceding this horrendous event(note: I do not call it an accident!)that if the hierarchy of the Fairchild AFB command structure had done the same kind of analysis, it would have been prevented. Also, four very important lives and millions of dollars of our tax dollars would have been saved. Let it be, if nothing else, a grave warning to others. Gravity is a law that always wins.
  • ed on 2011-Jun-04 23:24:56 ed said

    You mean vertical stab an it's the hatch (door). When you eject the firing sequence blows the leading edge of the door up, then the rest of the ejection sequence can follow. So that looks like a door / hatch to me.
  • Vulcanzero1 on 2011-Jun-09 18:05:04 Vulcanzero1 said

    Just an observation from a layman without any expert knowledge, which is that it seems that the aircraft angle of bank still seems to be increasing even when it is obvious that the aircraft was doomed, ie. there was no apparent remedial input from the pilot even a second or two from impact.
    To me, that suggests a number of possibilities:-

    1). Aircraft failure. Nothing mentioned in the accident report.
    2). Deliberate accident. Seems unlikely.
    3). Pilot error. A rogue pilot maybe but still highly skilled
    4). And this is my guess which does not seem to have been put forward previously - and of course it's only a guess - that the accident was the result of a struggle at the flying controls between pilot and co-pilot. In other words, the co-pilot Lt. Col. McGeeham tried to prevent Lt. Col. Holland from continuing the 360 degree turn at very low altitude by trying to take control of the aircraft but was strongly resisted.

    Don't all shout abuse at me. Just another point of view. But I can say that I still find it shocking to watch the video even now, just like the video of Concorde on fire.
  • tom on 2011-Oct-12 16:28:04 tom said

    Someone mentionned having pictures of b52 crash at KI Aawyer. Are you still here?
  • Lee on 2011-Oct-12 21:42:05 Lee said

    Bud lost respect for the aircraft and the lives of others.
  • Dave on 2011-Oct-13 13:47:20 Dave said

    As far as I can see (I'm not a pilot but I do fly simulators which are very accurate regarding the physics of flight and the behaviour of many different aircraft in flight and their dynamics) this incident was a case of pushing the plane too far, anyone with a basic knowledge of flying knows that if you bank at too steep an angle at too slow a speed you will stall, the nose will tip and the plane starts to fall towards ground, catastrophic if you're only 200 feet above ground, okay if you are a few thousand feet and have gravity to help increase your airspeed, get your flaps down and nose up and you will recover from the stall.
    You can see the plane is still rolling through 90 degrees as if going inverted, makes me wonder what on earth was going on in the cockpit cause it should have rolled out before 90 degrees.

    To the families of the Airmen who perished in that crash my heart felt condolences go out to you.

    To all the aviators out there, my respect,admiration and envy.
  • Dusty on 2012-Jan-05 04:41:40 Dusty said

    Regarding B-52H ejection seats: there are four seats on the upper deck that eject upward - pilot, copilot, EWO, and the seat formerly occupied by the gunner located next to the EWO. Two seats on the lower deck eject downward - navigator and radar/bomb navigator. These ejection seats are 1960's Boeing technology and while equipped with reliable catapults they are NOT fitted with rocket packs or ballistically-deployed parachutes like more advanced ejection seats such as Martin-Baker, ACES-II or Russian K-36. B-52 crew members must individually eject as there is no automatic sequential ejection system such as found on the B-1B. Anyone not occupying an ejection seat must manually bail out (preferably thru a lower deck hatch opening after the lower seats have ejected). The adverse attitude, low altitude and high sink of this aircraft placed any ejection or manual bailout attempt far outside the survivability envelope. The copilot hatch was successfully jettisoned as he initiated a "last resort" ejection but the ejection sequence was interrupted by ground impact. If the B-52 were equipped with the afore-mentioned advanced ejection seats, one or more of these crew members MAY have been able to successfully eject.
  • Dusty on 2012-Jan-05 18:10:06 Dusty said

    In past years, proposals were periodically made to retrofit B-52H models with an upgraded egress system comprised of advanced "zero/zero" ejection seats for the upper deck crew members and enhanced seat performance for the lower deck crew members. An automatic ejection sequencing system similar to the B-1B and EA-6 was also explored. Unfortunately cost always overrode benefit due to the extensive structural modifications required to accommodate non-OEM ejection seats and incorporation of the ejection sequencing system between all six crew member positions (routing of detonation transfer assemblies, explosive time delays, etc. within the existing aircraft structure). Total egress system upgrade costs as described (materiel + man-hours) could easily exceed $10 million per aircraft in 2012 dollars and this is why the B-52H continues to use 1960's egress system equipment and technology.
  • roy g chandler, Lt Col, USAF, (Ret) on 2012-Jan-25 23:27:45 roy g chandler, Lt Col, USAF, (Ret) said

    I flew with Bud while assigned to 1st Combat Evaluation Group, Barksdale, LA. A damn good pilot and I would fly to hell and back with him. For all of you critical types, just wish you were as good a Buff pilot!
  • "Vito" on 2012-Jan-27 02:56:48 "Vito" said

    "A damn good pilot and I would fly to hell and back with him. For all of you critical types, just wish you were as good a Buff pilot!"

    Too bad you weren't aboard Bud's fini flight so you could fly to hell with him. I wasn't as good a BUFF pilot as Bud... I was BETTER which is why I always brought my aircraft and crew back home in one piece.
  • Andrew on 2012-Jan-27 19:16:36 Andrew said

    The above photo eliminates any doubt over Bud Holland's flying skills.
  • G. Testerman on 2012-Feb-13 01:02:16 G. Testerman said

    Concerning the KI Sawyer crash. I was a high school student at Gwinn & my father was the head of disaster preparedness. It was a spring blizzard coming off Lake Superior. The B52 had made other attempts to land but ended up flying into the ground a short distance from the runway. My father stated that the plane sheared the trees off like a giant knife as it crashed. The rumor was that in addition to the snow the plane was having engine problems. It was also understood that the plane had a nuclear payload but this was denied for obvious reasons. The big stink at the base was not only the crash but the fact that the pieces of the wreck were on display for everyone coming or leaving the base, including the crews family. B52 crews are the best in the world & in an aircraft over 50 years old. I believe the crew did all they could. God bless all our military & keep them safe.
  • Richard W on 2012-Mar-06 10:30:03 Richard W said

    Is anyone on this link/page who might have been stationed at Anderson AFB, Guam between 1967-1969? I was there at the CommSta and during my tour there 2 B-52s crashed on take-off. One fell in very deep water and could not be recovered however, the other one fell in shallower waters and could be accessed. Does anyone remember this and if so, could you please get back to me? I am researching these accidents and need some input if you were there during '67-69 and remember the crashes.

    VR,

    Dick
  • Ed on 2012-Mar-06 19:30:50 Ed said

    Dick- if you'll go to the following web link you'll find a comprehensive list of B-52 losses/crashes: http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/b52_stratofortress.htm

    The list does identify a B-52D crashing into the Pacific after take-off from Andersen on 10 May '69 with no survivors. It also lists another B-52D crashing after take-off on 27 July '69 with no survivors. Specific tail numbers and crew rosters are provided for each crash.

    Hopefully the info helps!

    Best regards- Ed
  • Ed on 2012-Mar-06 19:33:01 Ed said

    http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/b52_stratofortress.htm

    (link reposted for clarity)
  • nightwriter on 2012-Mar-11 16:54:45 nightwriter said

    How soon we forget...

    In March 1987 (seven years before this crash) a KC-135 tanker crashed at Fairchild AFB while practicing for an airshow. After encountering wake turbulence created by its companion B-52, the KC-135 banked sharply at 90 degrees and crashed near the runway killing the crew of six and one person on the ground. The investigation revealed Strategic Air Command (SAC) had unofficially created an aerobatic team named "The Thunderhawks" to showcase SAC's mid-air refueling capability. The idea was to have a KC-135 with refueling boom extended fly by at very low level with a B-52 trailing directly behind it. After the investigation findings addressed the increased accident potential associated with using large heavy aircraft orginally designed for high altitude operations to perform low level aerobatics, the House Defense Appropriations Subcommittee cited the accident as a needless loss of lives and questioned if the benefits of airshows were worth the risks. Due to the close scrutiny, the Air Force immediately terminated "The Thunderhawks" with (then) Air Force Secretary Edward C. Aldridge assuring Congress the Air Force would refrain from using bombers and tankers to perform risky maneuvers for air shows.
  • sp steve on 2012-May-16 01:34:14 sp steve said

    Interesting comment about the low level B52/KC135 demo flights. I actually saw one of these take place while stationed at Castle AFB, and it wasn't even during an airshow! I also witnessed a B52 climbing at what seemed to me to be an extremely steep angle after a touch and go. As an SP, I saw an awful lot of B52s take off and never before had I seen one climb this steep. I kind of wonder if LtCol Holland was ever flying at Castle?
  • Paul on 2012-May-31 03:34:24 Paul said

    Why are there no photos of Lt Col Bud Holland anywhere on the internet? Photos of Lt Col McGeehan have been published but apparently there are no available photos of Holland. This crash has held my interest for many years.
  • "Kanga" on 2012-Jun-20 16:18:57 "Kanga" said

    There used to be a pic of "Bud" Holland online but it seems to have disappeared over the last couple years. It was the standard "official" photo included with officer bios. Every flying squadron should have his photo prominently displayed beneath the words "Don't Be An Idiot" as a reminder for pilots to keep their egos in check.
  • Grant Stewart on 2012-Jul-15 23:28:10 Grant Stewart said

    Meg- are you still out there? If so can you make contact on c130herctruck@hotmail.com. Thankyou
  • JohnK on 2012-Jul-25 16:17:51 JohnK said

    Meg, I am the son of a now deceased USAF RB47 and B52 pilot. My father knew your dad very well and came from a generation of aircrew that trained men like your father. My father had a lot of respect for him and I do think he has been generally maltreated by many. I think after growing up and spending my life as a dependent until I joined the Marines I have an idea of how these guys are. Characteristics that are now chided in the reports and other descriptions of USAF pilots were once characteristics that were often up to a point well regarded and hot pilots were looked up to and many did push the envelope to a point.

    You say there is no proof that Bud was at the controls. I am afraid that doesn't really ring true. He was the AC commander and whether he had his hands on the "stick" or not he was undeniably in control of that AC. That is called leadership and command.

    Now at 47 yrs and after having spent most of my life around leaders, being a leader myself and also being around strong, cocky and maybe even what can be described as men having massive egos (me included) we live and breath and sometimes by our actions. When we lead we lead completely even when we fail. We don't make excuses, we offer reasons why something happened and we take responsibility. Very few here if any can imagine what your family went through. I won't bother to try and explain it to those on this thread. I do know my father spoke to your family post accident.

    Anyhow, I won't belabor the point but I hope you may take some comfort in this thought. your father was a leader. regardless of the circumstances his last moments were spent understanding that regardless of anything else it was his responsibility. I guarantee that were he here today he would not make excuses he may offer reasons and explanations but never excuses. He was a leader and for better or worse many of his peers did hold him in high regard.

    Take care,

    John K
  • JohnK on 2012-Jul-25 16:36:15 JohnK said

    Very interesting to see how many KI sawyer residents and folks out of the B52 community. I know some of us probably know each other and may have even played together as kids while our fathers were on Alert.

    Anyhow, to those of you making ugly comments you are pathetic. You know very little about what that world is about know very little about the incident. Reading one report does not make you an expert. 4 brave men who served our nation honorably died that day. Nothing else really matters.
  • Blazer on 2012-Aug-03 23:39:20 Blazer said

    Bud Holland failed as a leader because he focused upon feeding his ego while disregarding the safety of those under his command as proven by his extensive track record of above-the-law noncompliance and this crash. He did not have the respect of his peers and subordinates as proven by their increasing refusal to fly with him. His superiors failed as leaders as proven by the post-crash disiplinary action taken against them for their failure to execute their responsibilities which contributed to this crash. The most amazing aspect of Bud Holland was the fact the DOD Nuclear Weapon Personnel Reliability Program's psychological screening blessed a megalomaniac to sit at the controls of a B-52 packed to the gills with nuclear weapons capable of vaporizing cities if so ordered by the Commander in Chief... or if Bud Holland didn't feel like playing by the rules.
  • Pelley on 2012-Aug-26 23:13:14 Pelley said

    This news story has a picture of Holland.

    News Story Behind The Fairchild AFB 1994 B-52 Crash
    http://youtu.be/LgJl7b9bQH0
  • Dr. Tracy Baker on 2012-Oct-11 12:59:23 Dr. Tracy Baker said

    I have read all sides of this story and I have been an officer in the Air Force, though I did not fly. What this all comes down to is arrogance and not using that three pound lump between the ears. When I was in the Air Force, I saw the kind of arrogance described here. What was well documented in the online article "Darker Shades of Blue" is not an isolated example. I saw it many times when on active duty. Fortunately, that kind of behavior usually got reigned in by commanders. Bud Holland was not reigned in, costing 4 lives and a 45 million dollar airplane. But as the old saying goes, that is just the tip of the iceberg. Bud Holland's arrogance is repeated every day, not just in the Air Force, but in any large organization, where people with too much testosterone and not enough brains are allowed to do stupid things under the guise of not inhibiting their abilities and creativity. Not wanting to "rock the boat" or "blow the whistle" are other excuses for this. It is ironic that the one person who "blew the whistle" got killed for his efforts, although blowing the whistle usually results in professional demise only. Air Force and societal cultures do not reward people who blow the whistle on abuses of power. Those in power have been given that power as a sacred trust and unfortunately, many of them abuse it. The ethics and morality they learned in training are shed when the flow of testosterone exceeds the flow of brain waves. Eventually, it catches up with those who abuse their power as it did with LtCol Holland, but many lives are destroyed along the way, though not often in such dramatic fashion. When considering such foolish behavior, I am always reminded of what my Physics Professor in college told our class. He said "People, people, people, before you do anything in life, ask yourself "Is this reasonable?" Asking yourself that simple question and giving yourself an honest, intelligent answer just takes a split second and can prevent this kind of disaster and the physical, psychological and professional destruction of people's lives.
  • Whitney Thompson on 2012-Nov-10 23:12:30 Whitney Thompson said

    I am the daughter of Col. Robert E. Wolff who was in the instructor pilots seat for this fatal crash. He was also the Vice Wing Commander at Fairchild A.F.B. I have read through the USAF accident report that was dropped off at my house by some nice men in blue when I was just 15 years old. The reports are still kept in a nice box at the top of my moms closet. My mom and dad were married 27 years when this fatal crash happened, and although she has someone special in her life, has never remarried. My brother and I have grown up, and moved on with families of our own and are doing well. But there is not a day that goes by, that I dont think about my father. I have never, ever, cast "blame" on Bud Holland, although all indicators do indeed point to pilot error. I often wondered why MY OWN dad did nothing to stop him after all of his proven violations....the question ran through my mind, but in the big scheme of things its not what really matters. I was so pleased to see Pat and Colin McGeehans comments on this page, as I have thought of all the families involved so often through the years and wondered how everyone was, and I am so pleased that Pat was able to learn so much about all of this. I guess I just felt the need to speak out a bit. Meg, my heart broke for your family that day too, I cannot imagine all the pain you all went through and how much extra your hearts hurt b/c of the "blame" factor. God bless you all. This was a true tragedy that day, for all of the families involved and for the Air Force. I take comfort in know that this tragedy is used to now teach and keep our current pilots safe. Most of comfort is in knowing that the Bible tells us that God knows the exact number of our days, and I know that for whatever reason, HE called four warriors home that day. Are they missed, absolutely, without a doubt...I hope that some can read this and think of the families and what they go through when you post comments....all of us lost someone that day.
  • Former USAF on 2013-Jan-01 16:50:03 Former USAF said

    That's a VERTICAL stabilizer -- it's only horizontal because the plane is doing something it's not designed to do -- fly on its side.
  • jdeacon on 2013-Jan-13 21:05:48 jdeacon said

    to: former KI , I also am a former KI (76-79) and remember that crash vividly. I Am a former member of 410th CES assigned to Sawyer and was a member of the Prime Beef Team assigned to the crash of 1Apr.1977. Was not a pretty sight. Pissed off that the blame seemed to be put on the deceased so quickly ...when they where not here to defend themselves. OF COURSE the simple excuse is "PILOT ERROR" ,because, the alternative, MECHANICAL ERROR could reqire grounding a "fleet" of aircraft. That would never do! Never mind what the implications of "pilot error" would do to his/her family,team squadron,wing,group,..etc. Doesn't matter..blame the dead guy. It's the easy way out. Rest easy my friend, all aboard were gathered together lovingingly and brought home to rest. Jim
  • Daniel on 2013-Apr-21 19:25:26 Daniel said

    That's the co-pilot ejecting. Waited too long, didn't make it.
  • Former mishap investigator on 2013-May-05 23:56:31 Former mishap investigator said

    The copilot initiated ejection but the sequence was interrupted by ground impact. As evident by his hatch jettisoning, he was able to raise one or both of his side-mounted ejection arming levers to begin the ejection sequence as designed. However, life sciences investigators could not determine if he subsequently squeezed one or both firing triggers to fire his seat after the hatch cleared the aircraft. Because he was sitting at a 90 degree left bank nose low position as shown in the photo, activating his ejection handles & triggers would likely be difficult especially if his arm reach was reduced by his shoulder harness inertia reel automatically locking to restrain his torso's movement. As noted in an earlier comment, this crew was far outside their ejection envelope due to the B-52's ejection seats being based upon 50-yr-old Boeing and Weber Aircraft technology which requires much more time and altitude for safe operation than modern "zero-zero" rated ejection seats such as Goodrich ACES II, Martin-Baker Mk-16, and Zvezda K-36.
  • Joel Van Engen on 2013-May-10 22:12:22 Joel Van Engen said

    Im the crew chief of 0039 from 1972 to 1974 at Grand Forks AFB , It crashed in 1977, Can anyone give me any info on this as I really need to know, Capt. Mack I know your out there contact me. I need your help again.Thanks so much, I know you flew my plane the flight before it went down after it went into maintenance for three weeks with electrical problems.
  • Kanga on 2013-May-17 22:50:40 Kanga said

    Joel ~ Info about 0039's crash can be found by going to the following link and scrolling approx. 3/4 down the page. Accidents are listed in sequence by date. Cheers.

    http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/b52_stratofortress.htm

    (just cut & paste to your browser's address search box)
  • anonymous on 2013-Nov-17 15:16:11 anonymous said

    Why did this dude not take up a career as a test pilot? Seems like it would have been better suited for his way of wanting to fly.
  • SteveM on 2013-Nov-20 16:30:32 SteveM said

    Your impression of what a test-pilot does not really match reality. "Test flying" is probably the most boring type of flying you can possibly do - fly precise parameters while the computers record the data.

    The key skill you need is the ability to fly precisely and exactly match the requirments of the test proflile. Definitely not a job for "hot dogs."
  • Phill on 2013-Dec-15 10:22:47 Phill said

    Due to low altitude, only the hatch above the co-pilot's position blew, the seat didn't eject... R.I.P.
  • Jim on 2014-Jan-20 14:09:38 Jim said

    I was stationed at Fairchild twice...1980 and 1981-87. We lost a B-52 in October of 84 due to a mishap during a low level bomb run descent. We lost a tanker during air show practice in 87...crashed on the base near my squadron. Then, of course, this crash, also airshow related. I was a gunner on B-52s during my first 11 years of my career. I know aircrew mentality. I have done airshows in the B-52 including foreign ones. I was the gunner on the Thunderhawks demo team that was associated with the tanker crash in 87. All this to say, we don't really know what happened on that fateful day in 94. Yes, we like to "show off" our B-52 and demonstrate its capabilities, etc. I feel for the families of those lost. I have lost several close friends in B-52 accidents...which is what they are...accidents. We have all learned from these incidents. We have lost fellow airman, dads, sons and brothers. So let's stop the speculation...stick with the facts...B-52 stalled as a result of excessive bank angle...that was an escape hatch flying off aircraft just before impact...Bud Holland was a good stick who had, in the past, pushed the envelope...but we don't know what he or the other pilot did in those last few seconds. May they rest in peace and may we find peace in our lives and be better than yesterday.
  • SSgt S Masters on 2014-Mar-01 16:34:54 SSgt S Masters said

    I was a b52 gunner for many years and have countless hours in the great old BUFF. In all my years and hours I have never been in an emergency anything close to what those brave souls were in. I was stationed my whole time at Ellsworth and rememberd hearing about the tragic accident. My heart went out toall the airmen and their familys. No matter who's faullt it was the big picture was that all those men died.
  • MarshallUmps on 2014-Mar-19 15:05:03 MarshallUmps said

    3 or 4 seats upward eject (Pilot, Co-Pilot, ECM, and on newer models the Tail Gunner) and 2 downward (Navigator & Bombardier).
    Successful evacuation of a B52 had to be choreographed with downward seats first, people with no seats jump out the bottom, and lastly, upward seats.
    Needless to say, there weren't too many successful evacuations, even in the best of circumstances...
  • art2science on 2014-Sep-25 18:54:35 art2science said

    The circumstances of this 1994 crash were duplicated in 2010, in a C-17 crash at Elmendorf AFB. Again, it was a rehearsal for an air show. Again, the pilot had a history of pushing his aircraft to the edge of the flight envelope, and beyond safe limits. Again, leadership had looked the other way.
    A good summary of the final report is here: http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20101218/NEWS/12180318/Report-Globemaster-pilot-ignored-protocol
    Here is an excerpt:
    Maj. Michael Freyholtz flew C-17 Globemasters beyond their limits to entertain crowds, routinely ignoring cockpit stall warnings as he maneuvered the aircraft in and out of danger.

    The 34-year-old demonstration pilot was teaching others to do the same July 28 when the C-17 he was flying crashed at Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska, an investigation concluded. The crash killed all four on board and happened just two days before the Arctic Thunder air show was to begin at the base.

    The report blamed Freyholtz for the crash because he failed to fly the C-17 within flight manual guidance for the plane.

    "His aggressive flying placed the aircraft outside the viable flight parameters ... where recovery was not possible," wrote Brig. Gen. Carlton Everhart, president of the accident investigation board.
  • Lou McKellar on 2014-Oct-02 23:34:36 Lou McKellar said

    Two things:

    Meg, when was your father stationed at KI Sawyer? The name looks familiar - we used to flight follow aircraft in the command post.

    I arrived at KI the week before the B52 crashed. I came into the command post the next morning to find the casualty team preparing to make notifications.
  • MissileGuy on 2015-Jan-07 14:27:38 MissileGuy said

    I was assigned to Fairchild's Command Post (CP) in September 1988. Before I began CP training, I was told to go to the base tower and watch a B-52 MITO (Minimum Interval Take Off) at dawn. When I arrived, it was dark outside but soon the sun peaked over the horizon and we heard the line of B-52s with a simultaneous engine start (awesome). The first aircraft launched into the sun and then at the prescribed 15 second (plus or minus two seconds) interval, the 2nd aircraft launched and then another B-52 launched at 15 seconds. The fourth aircraft then launched not at 15 seconds but at 9 seconds. It appeared the pilot was attempting to catch the B-52 that launched in front of him. I still see scenes, like pictures in my head, of what transpired next. The chasing B-52 flew into the jet wash of the aircraft in front and apparently lost power to the point the pilot executed a hard right turn. The right wing dipped to almost ground level. All of us watching stared silently, expecting to see the B-52 cart wheel as it crashed. With only a couple seconds to recover, the pilot was able to get enough power to the engines to lift the right wing away from the dirt of the infield. We watched as a huge amount of ground dirt and engine smoke swirled from the right side of the aircraft. The B-52 finally flew at a low but level altitude 90 degrees from the direction of the other aircraft that previously launched. The BUFF barely cleared a building on the other side of the runway. No one spoke for a while until a B-52 pilot standing in the tower said, "That was Lt. Col Holland, he's a dangerous pilot and I won't fly with him." I digested the name and months later when I became the aircrew training officer and walked into a classroom with 36 B-52 crew members, the first person to greet me was Lt Col Bud Holland. I remember his smile and his warmth when he asked me to go on an orientation flight in his B-52. Having a wife and two kids at home, I politely declined using an excuse of being busy with the training duty requirements. I still feel sad about the horrible losses to the families and friends of the crew members.
  • Dr. Tracy Baker on 2015-Jan-16 10:08:35 Dr. Tracy Baker said

    I have read "Darker Shades of Blue" multiple times so as not to miss any of the subtle bits of info, have watched the video of the crash multiple times and served in the Air Force, though in non-flying duties. I have seen over and over the arrogant attitude like LtCol Holland had. If someone had reined him in early, it is likely this accident would NOT have happened. This was a case of his testosterone overwhelming his brains. I see this in medicine as well. What I find most disgusting about this whole sordid affair was the "slap on the wrist" given to only ONE senior officer. Besides the FOUR senior officers killed in the "accident" and the investment the USAF had in them, what about the $45,000,000.00 IRREPLACEABLE airplane? The four lives were just as irreplaceable and what did the USAF do? A letter of reprimand and a piddling fine for 4 months to one person. You've got to be kidding me!!! Make an example of them! Too late for that now, but the next time a senior officer wants to play "Mr. Nice Guy", hang them up by their testicles for the world to see.
  • Razor on 2015-Mar-27 21:48:21 Razor said

    When I was a young navigator, I flew one mission with Holland. After landing, I vowed never to fly with him again. Thankfully I never had to.
  • luv planes on 2016-Mar-28 00:01:42 luv planes said

    Does anybody know if Bud ever flew at a airshow in Kansas City. I remember a B-52 doing some pretty aggressive moves at one of the shows. It would have been at Richards Gebaur AFB in south KC. Sad,sad event in aviation history.
  • 325bs on 2016-Sep-24 15:17:00 325bs said

    BUD HOLLAND WOULD OF CRASHE'D AND KILLED THE CREW IN JAPAN IF THE CO PILOT DIDN'T TAKE CONTROL AND PULLED UP. THEY MISSED THE RIDGE LINE BY 3 FT. THIS WASHOULD OF NO SHOCK TO ANYONE IN THAT SQUADRON AND I KNOW OF ONLY A COUPLE OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD FLY WITH HIM.
  • Craig B52 pilot on 2016-Nov-02 13:49:28 Craig B52 pilot said

    Nikkihuston,
    I know this thread is 12 years old...but am trying to track down any of Ken Huston's children... I'm a United Airline pilot and am flying a trip with Ken's former navigator...we wanted to share with his family what a great man he was and how he had impacted our lives. If anyone has contact information, please email me at cdeboni@gmail.com. Thanks
  • X AF outlaw on 2016-Dec-09 19:39:04 X AF outlaw said

    Wow! Its been 7 years since I last commented on this. I don't call myself X AF outlaw for nothing ;-) I see there are a lot of good information and discussions over the years. Good work guys and gals. A+
  • X AF outlaw on 2016-Dec-09 21:55:52 X AF outlaw said

    Hello everyone, its been a wile. With a fresh mined and looking at the crash video a few times, I put this theory. He was trying to do a 360 sharp turn around the tower where he put too much aggressive bank input into the yoke. It over banked his intended bank angle, he put in reverse bank to recover but it was too little too late with no recovery time. Add into the equation of the co-pilot and flight safety office behind him shouting at him to stop. But scroll up to 2011-Feb-10 Dr Tracy M Baker... what she or he says is true. I believe this is what caused me to have a meltdown psychodic episode that got me booted out the Air Force. I will soon try to see a VA psychologist to assist in a appeal to upgrade my discharge, which I regret so much because I was a die hard patriot. But... " if people treated me like a monster, I would act like one!!! "
  • X AF outlaw on 2016-Dec-10 14:01:09 X AF outlaw said

    Also to add to my theory up top is " Bud "started that intended 360 orbit around the tower impromptu and spontainiusly after tower " wasted " his time and ego with that go around for the landing KC-135. The other crew member's was suprised and alarmed by his sudden over imputed bank. They all was yelling at him not to " ordit " the tower like a Maverick "top gun"
  • Jim Roux (Kanga) on 2016-Dec-16 17:50:24 Jim Roux (Kanga) said

    Re: X AF outlaw ~ did you compose your postings by yourself or did a first-grader help you? Your consistent use of poor grammar, poor spelling, and simplistic expression does not paint a picture of an outlaw much less an Air Force veteran. Your theory claiming that Bud Holland "put too much aggressive bank input into the yoke" is pure genius... I don't know how such a clearly obvious fact slipped past everyone.
  • X AF outlaw on 2016-Dec-20 10:34:43 X AF outlaw said

    Jim Roux (Kanga)~ It makes me laugh when Rocket Scientists like yourself get on blogs or chats like this and pick out all the grammar, spelling and punctuations to make yourself seem smart. I hope (Kanga) is your call sign Fighter Jock. And if it ain't... It sounds stupid!
    In my defence, My postings was done with a 3 to 4 years old defective, first gen smart phone that has a crazy auto spell check that changes words that are correctly spelt to something that I had no intent on typing after I hit the send or add button. It does it with commas and apostrophes too. So there. And for my Emoticons... F U !!! did you understand that one?
    I am sure other readers on this was amused at your cheap, pointless, waste of KB shots at me... Kangaroo !!!!!
  • Boz on 2016-Dec-24 18:42:21 Boz said

    "X AF outlaw": (1) the first official smartphone was the original iphone which was released in Jan 2007. Thus, your claim of possessing a " 3 to 4 years old defective, first gen smart phone" is an erroneous statement since a first generation smartphone would now be 10 years old as of Jan 2017. (2) Every smartphone and computer past to present offers the ability to easily disable the automatic correction of spelling. (3) "Kanga" is indeed a call sign bestowed upon Jim Roux by fellow pilots to play upon the phonetic sound of his last name to form the word "Kangaroo". As for your opinion that "Kanga" sounds stupid, the same can be said for your own self-christened user name "X AF outlaw". (4) Your response to "Kanga" is typical of every internet troll who gets called out on their bullsh!t.
  • X AF outlaw on 2016-Dec-29 22:14:32 X AF outlaw said

    RE: Bozo D Clown, Jim Roux (KangaDoo),all in the flying nerd squad~ Sorry it took so long for a reply, waited to do this on a real computer. I said first gen smart phone... not first gen IPhone smart a$$ !!! The phone I have been using is a HUAWEI M866 Mercury that has been discontinued, look it up on Wikipedia or a google search. This must be how you get laid.. Now, X AF outlaw was "bestowed" upon me for being a former 8+year U.S. Air Force member; outlaw for the take-no-shit, foot-to-a$$ kicking I do in the streets, a year in Nav con Brig, goose creek Charleston,SC and six years in FCC Coleman USP (U.S. Federal penitentiary) Coleman, FL. Only Lame a$$ guys like you use the word "troll". Why don't you guys find something more insulting to say???? I am not feeding into this, so this will be may last replay to this foolishness!

    Hope you guys don't yank your "sticks" too hard in the office.
  • X AF outlaw on 2016-Dec-30 21:38:13 X AF outlaw said

    I lost count of how many "sticks" I yanked while in prison.
  • Flying nerd sqaud on 2016-Dec-31 04:11:40 Flying nerd sqaud said

    RE: high jacking user name Guy(s)~This is the real ( X AF outlaw) I have Never Jurked a fello mans "stick"(s) in my life.
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-02 12:02:23 X AF outlaw said

    I talk big now but when I was in prison I was everyone's little b!tch and had to service them daily by letting them shove their "sticks" into every orifice. I'm not proud of it but it's the only way a punk like me can survive so many years in prison.
  • Flying nerd squad on 2017-Jan-02 15:13:04 Flying nerd squad said

    RE : X AF outlaw~ thats what they train us flying nerds to do up at Fairchild AFB POW survival.
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-02 19:17:34 X AF outlaw said

    I used to like women but all of those years in prison changed me. Now I love nothing more than the feeling of a man ravishing my a$$ and the taste of hot man sauce gushing across my tongue and down my throat. Ummmm yummy! Oops I gotta go. My mom just came home and I'm not supposed to be on her computer since she caught me watching gay porn online.
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-03 00:15:36 X AF outlaw said

    It's the middle of the night and I feel so cold and lonely living down here in my mom's basement. I need a man so bad I could scream!
  • Anonymous Caucasian on 2017-Jan-03 09:59:19 Anonymous Caucasian said

    We White Boys are so GAY!!!! all of US!!! We have sex with women but we all are gay down inside.. I was lockup for credit card fraud, and being a white boy like X AF outlaw.. I sucked cock and drank cum every day, that's what white boys do!!! ... its a fact!
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-03 17:58:31 X AF outlaw said

    Mmmmm anonymous you sound yummy! You're making my sphincter quiver!
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-05 14:59:11 X AF outlaw said

    I got a new job at a fitness club. I wash laundry & I get to sniff a lot of jockstraps when nobodys around. I love the ofor of ball sweat!
  • Tammi Rogers on 2017-Jan-15 18:36:16 Tammi Rogers said

    X AF outlaw please do not claim to be a veteran because you are not worthy of being associated with the title.
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-17 18:34:06 X AF outlaw said

    I am always a veteran, and there is nothing you can say or do to change that! !!!!!
  • the REAL X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-17 20:33:59 the REAL X AF outlaw said

    I'm a veteran prison b!tch and I have the over-stretched a$$hole to prove it. I can't even hold my farts in because my anal sphincter muscle looks like a worn out tractor tire. I'm not proud of being a gay twink but I had to do what I had to do in order to survive all of those years in prison. A little punk like me doesn't stand a chance of remaining heterosexual inside a prison full of animals with raging erections.
  • The true X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-17 21:23:38 The true X AF outlaw said

    To the coward, user name high jacking, 911 calling tuff Guy cyber punk. You are talking bout your self and how you would take it if you walked in my shoes! Stop using my user name with your gay nastiness.
  • The REAL X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-19 13:34:53 The REAL X AF outlaw said

    I'm the REAL X AF outlaw. The original one & only.
  • Original  X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-19 17:48:17 Original X AF outlaw said

    Its like Tom Cruze in " Oblivian " I have a clone!!!!
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-19 22:23:13 X AF outlaw said

    I feel so full! I must've sucked at least 50 peters today!
  • The non-gay X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-20 09:27:31 The non-gay X AF outlaw said

    My Gay punk clone is so gay and nasty!
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-20 15:00:47 X AF outlaw said

    A clone is an exact duplicate of the original. Thus, if a clone is gay and nasty...
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-20 16:57:02 X AF outlaw said

    Why was Dr Evils clone (mini me) so different than the original then? ??? You have to earn the right to be a " X AF outlaw "! You are gay and that does not cut it to be my clone. Stop impersonating the OG X AF outlaw!!!!
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-20 19:54:31 X AF outlaw said

    An exact duplicate of X AF outlaw would be known as "wee man" instead of "mini me"
  • X AF outlaw on 2017-Jan-21 17:44:01 X AF outlaw said

    I don't know who my father is. My mother said it could be any one of 500 or so customers she had that month.

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